Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

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doggeface

Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby doggeface » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:30 pm

The fixing of new wheels to shafting is vexing but the clearances involved are too small for really successful super glue. Equally the prospect of pinning does not appeal due to the drilling problems. It has occured to me that there is no reason why - in the absence of knurling - that modest flats should not be filed onto the shafting -- ensuring that the circular profile is maintained sufficiently and then super glued.

I have not attempted this yet but would be very interested in peoples views especially as it has cropped up in several subject threads here.


Regards

Peter

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Russ Elliott » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:15 pm

I don't see why your suggested method shouldn't work fine, Peter. Alternatively, if you can get inside the bore with a fine triangular file or a narrow piercing saw blade, notches can be made inside the bore. It works with a free-flowing solder, so I don't see why it shouldn't have a decent enough effect with thin-grade superglue.

bore-notching.png
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Will L
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Will L » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:47 pm

doggeface wrote:The fixing of new wheels to shafting is vexing but the clearances involved are too small for really successful super glue.


Not sure that's true. I find that a smear of Loctite does what it says on the tin (ok red plastic bottle). And on the rare occasions when I'm forced to take a wheel off again, it isn't easy and there is definitely some in the joint.

Will

John Fitton

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby John Fitton » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:46 am

Will,

What type of Loctite do you use?

John

craig_whilding

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby craig_whilding » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:18 am

Usually its Loctite 603 used to retain wheels to axles (its in a little red bottle). Its not a superglue and a green fluid.

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Will L
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Will L » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:57 am

craig_whilding wrote:Usually its Loctite 603 used to retain wheels to axles (its in a little red bottle). Its not a superglue and a green fluid.


Correct

doggeface

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby doggeface » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:33 pm

After further experiments (including the use of my first idea of flats on the shaft) which did not work I tried the notched bore technique. This appears to be sucessful -- adhesive used was loctite 603.

Peter

John Fitton

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby John Fitton » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:34 pm

Thanks Gents.

John

smyles

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby smyles » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:42 pm

I have used Loctite 603 to fix driving wheels to axles. Unfortunately some loctite on one wheel has got into the axle bearing and jammed that wheel set so it wont turn. How can I free it without destroying the Sharman driving wheel? Ideas please.
Mike

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Will L
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Will L » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:37 pm

smyles wrote:I have used Loctite 603 to fix driving wheels to axles. Unfortunately some loctite on one wheel has got into the axle bearing and jammed that wheel set so it wont turn. How can I free it without destroying the Sharman driving wheel? Ideas please.


So as you know, Loctite will come undone with heat, but that probably wouldn't do the wheels much good. I'm afraid you'll have to remove the wheels, then a smart tap with a hammer will also do the trick so long as the chassis is well supported.

To avoid a recurrence, yes it's happened to me too, I like to have a turn or two of cotton thread wrapped round the axle to mop up any stray Loctite.

Will
Last edited by Will L on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim V
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Tim V » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:41 pm

Best to put the Loctite inside the wheel, not on the axle, but this is perhaps being wise after the event....
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

David Thorpe

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:48 pm

Tim V wrote:Best to put the Loctite inside the wheel, not on the axle, but this is perhaps being wise after the event....

Not easy when using a GW wheel press!

DT

smyles

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby smyles » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:20 pm

Thank you. When I fitted the wheels I pushed them nearly home on the axle, put a little loctite inside the wheel and then pushed it on to the axle at the right back to back. Beats me how the loctite got into the bearing! The other two axles are OK. Of course the problem one had to be the driven axle!
Mike

David Thorpe

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:48 pm

craig_whilding wrote:Usually its Loctite 603 used to retain wheels to axles (its in a little red bottle). Its not a superglue and a green fluid.

Oh dear, I've been using Loctite 601, also called a retainer. It seems to do the job (as well as travelling much longer distances than intended and gumming up axle bearings :( ). Are there advantages of 603 over 601? And Will, with your cotton thread method, doesn't the Loctite stick the thread to the axle or wheel?

DT

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Tim V
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Tim V » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:01 pm

This has been discussed many times, 603 is the replacement for 601.

601/603 have a shelf life of about two years.

If your bottle does not have a use by date - it is already too old :!:
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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Paul Willis
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:19 pm

Tim V wrote:601/603 have a shelf life of about two years.

If your bottle does not have a use by date - it is already too old :!:

Whoops! My bottle doesn't have a use by date, and I only bought it a few months ago :-(

However, in case anyone is thinking that out of date Loctite is a pricey game, my little vial only cost around £3.50 from someone like Precision Paints at a show. It contains about 20ml, which doesn't seem much but represents several years' worth of locomotive building to me!

So binning that old bottle really isn't the end of the earth.

HTH
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David Thorpe

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:22 pm

Tim V wrote:If your bottle does not have a use by date - it is already too old :!:

It's only too old if it doesn't work. It works. Advice on other fora appears to be that as long as the bottle has been sealed and kept at a reasonable ambient temperature, it should be fine. My bottle must be well over five years old, but has not been used until this year. So if anyone wants to bin their Loctite products because they've reached their sell-by dates, I'll gladly take them off their hands and only charge a small eco-disposal fee. :D

I also note that the Loctite website still advertises 601 as a "high strength, low viscosity, small gaps retainer", while 603 is stated to be a "high strength, oil tolerant retainer". The two therefore appear to be different and currently available.

DT

PS My fairly recently acquired bottle of 243 does indeed have a date on the base but whether it is a 'sell by' or a 'use by' or a 'best before' date I don't know.

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Will L
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Will L » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:30 am

DaveyTee wrote:.. with your cotton thread method, doesn't the Loctite stick the thread to the axle or wheel?


Not so I'd noticed, it unwinds no trouble so long as you take it off in the opposite direction than you put it on. Better still, I can now put the Loctite on the axle ends rather than in the axle hole in the wheel, and as a result I've stopped glueing the axle pins in on my GW wheel press. Net result I haven't had any "Locite were I didn't want it" events I started working this way.

Will

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Tim V
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Tim V » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:47 pm

I bought my 601 from the Sharman wheels stand about 20 years ago, I finally ditched it last year, when it stopped working.

601/603 go off in the absence of air and the presence of steel, so won't glue cotton.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

HowardGWR

Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby HowardGWR » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:36 pm

I once read somewhere that Loctite 601 did not have a capillary effect. I too made the mistake of believing it. I don't know what 603 does. Regards, Howard

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:53 am

I have used Loctite 601 for 30 years for wheels on axles and just had my first failure of quartering...too long a train uphill?

Following advice from local guru Tim Venton and late Guy Williams I want to start pinning.
Tim supplied advice re his axle drilling jig which I made and rigged in my high speed drill machine but then hit trouble trying to drill 0.5mm into 1/8" silversteel...many bust drills on breakout and no useable holes yet.

Tim advised using ground mild steel which if free cutting sounds a better bet for reasonable success rate.

After 2 hours on the net I can't find a supplier of any below 1/4"

Anyone know a stockist of 1/8" ground fc MS?

allanferguson
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby allanferguson » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:05 pm

Try Milton Keynes Metals, inter alia (no connection, etc)
http://www.mkmetals.co.uk/product/547/1

Allan F

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:30 pm

Ta but MK already checked..not listed.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:22 pm

Sorry, incomplete reply....
your link is to drawn MS not ground.

I doubt drawn stock is suitable for loco axles, tolerance of 2 thou undersize would not give a good fit into wheels

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Knuckles
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Re: Fixing wheels and pinions to shafting.

Postby Knuckles » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:35 pm

Is Loctite 243 or Powerbond superglue also suitable? I have some of those. I opted to get this loctite over the 603 because if I make a cock up it's apparently a bit easier to get undone, but what thinkest you guys? I'm about to embark on the P4 journey.
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