Pre-Grouping P&C practice - LSWR equivalent to REA B7 turnout?

[essdee]

Calling all Pre-Group, especially LSWR, trackwork afficionados?

Having completed the P&C elements of Braysdown Colliery Sidings, for my 1922 era SDJR project, I am turning my attention to the adjacent main running lines, where 1902/08 LSWR P&C geometry appears to be appropriate - the line having been doubled here in the 1890s. The sidings included four heel-less switches of 1891 geometry, but both main lines would have lost such P&C work by 1922.

From Derek Genzel's writings and personal communication, I have a thick file of LSWR data to work from. I also have the splendid article by Peter Bedding on 'LSWR Switches and Crossings', recently re-published by the South Western Circle in its Journal (arguably worth joining the Circle for this article alone, whatever your own company affiliations?).

Before I set about laying out the LSWR equivalent of what in later years would be a number of 'B7' turnouts, I wonder if anyone else has already ploughed this furrow? The Bedding article has sketch layouts for the relevant LSWR No.2 switch and 1:7 crossing, and I have Derek's own 1984 drawing detailing the timbering for a contemporary No.2/1:6 turnout - the latter being invaluable within the sidings trackage, which incorporated some 1913 modifications.

The main line 1:7 turnouts will use far more 12" timbering and less 14" timbers than the 1891 work, and hopefully the timber spacings can be interpolated from Derek's 1:6 drawing once I have deduced the extra lead required for the 1:7 situation.

However, it would be nice to find that somebody else has already 'done the donkey work', of course!!

Any thoughts would be most welcome,

Many thanks in anticipation,

Steve

[Worzels Works]

Hi Steve, Unfortunately no further information from me to add however following with great interest! Do you mind if I ping you a message to pick your brains about trackwork? (as a prospective 1905-1912 modeller of the south western)

All the best,
JC

[essdee]

Hi James,
Many thanks for your interest - and yes, of course, please PM me and we will 'converse'!

As an addendum to my original posting above, further sorting of my files revealed 'T4B7LSWR', a LSWR 1:7 laser-cut timber base from www.timbertracks.co.uk , ie. Brian Lewis. I have yet to compare this with the Genzel/Bedding information, but Brian correctly includes a 14" timber at the switch ends, and another pair of 14" timbers under the crossing - all others being 12" timbers by the date of the 1902 LSWR re-jig of P&C work, which did away with loose heel switches (for new work, obviously). I need to 'compare notes' more fully with the TT (!!) offering, before inquiring of Brian about his own sources of info.

Your own period, of course, dovetails with 'The Master', Martin Finney, and his P4 Semley, set in July 1912!

Progress, anyway!

ATB

Steve

[Tim V]

Of interest, I have a copy of the 40' to the inch plan of the doubling from Radstock to Braysdown, the Braysdown end is fairly clear, but the Radstock end is unintelligible. Copy of the section of interest to me, a passing loop on the SCC plateway below, Braysdown is just right of here.

Writhlington Loop colour original.jpg

[essdee]

Heh heh, thanks Tim!

We were down there early May, what a jungle that area now is! Fascinating to see, here, a smaller Writhlington dirt batch hard up to the old SCC tramway - and I am delighted to see that crossing of the S&D route shown. Braysdown headshunt eventually extended west to just short of this, I think? It was intriguing to see the rise on the headshunt, so that wagons could be rolled down through the screens by gravity alone?

Getting a bit crowded, model-wise, with your Wellow SCC (congrats on that!) just up the lines, and both myself and Jerry Clifford using Paglinch farm Bridges as scenic ends. Jerry's New Foxcote Pit, translated to my scale and location, would stand outside on the driveway of my house........

I think my version has a baseboard (flap!) joint at about 10/11" on your steel rule?

ATB,

Steve

[Tim V]

I had a walk around there myself not so long ago, the loop in my picture above is covered in colliery waste, but the space for the loop in the middle picture is still there at towpath level. But no sign of any plateway blocks.

P1010222.JPG

P1010221.JPG

P1010220.JPG

[John Palmer]

Those are absolutely fascinating views of what I take to be the plans for "Widening Number 1" on the Radstock-Midford section, albeit with lots of overlapping lines that give a confusing impression of the layout of the curves around the north eastern corner of the Lower Writhlington batch! I'm attaching an annotated extract from Tim's plan to show points I found of particular interest:

Annotations to Tim Venton's Widening Number1 Plan .png

The possible site of the bridge under the original single line to form the plateway connection to the Braysdown incline can also be seen on the 1883 Ordnance plan reproduced at page 65 in Vol. 1 of Chris Handley's "Radstock Coal & Steam".

Sorry to veer off topic a bit; also following with interest discussion of LSW P&C practice.

[essdee]

Tim, John,

Many thanks for the extra scans Tim, and the resultant input from John - delighted to have both! Especially as I now seem to have established that TimberTracks' 'B7' LSWR turnout base does fully match my prototype info from Derek Genzel for a 1:7 LSWR turnout. Hardly a major surprise, after all. Very pleasing to have that available, and will be ordering.

I will still be pleased to hear further thoughts on LSWR turnout practice, though, re the 1:7 turnout!

Tim, really pleased to see these images. I don't remember ever seeing this line survey as far east (or north, in train direction terms), when working with Chris Handley on Radstock area, over thirty years ago now.

John, agree with your two highlighted areas - I was aware of the old SCC bridge to the west, but well done spotting the old Foxcote cabin position - I failed to pick that out.

Yes indeed, there are tantalizing relics of the old SCC route, immediately west of the Writhlington SB. THere is an unusual arcing line, looking like a boundary, west of Braysdown screens - the original parish boundary wandered from from the Wellow brook hereabouts, almost certainly due to the need for Writhlington's dirt batch. The OS 1:2500 surveys clearly show the parish border to the NW of the straightened Wellow Brook course. In pre canal tramroad days, it appeared to be hard up against the north side of the valley? Very strange.

The plan's date puzzles me, if notionally a widening one (1890s) in that the 1902 OS survey depicts only two sidings on the Writhlingon side, whereas this plan shows the third siding has been added. That was the situation in 1922 when I am modelling it - the fourth siding had appeared between then and 1929. By 1922, Braysdown had gained a third road, a reception, occupying the space seen here between the main lines and the screens road. The cramped site required a double slip SE of the screens building. Further, the two empties sidings to the west were slewed and joined, thence feeding into the new sidings, which in turn was later extended west as far as the crossing mentioned in my earlier posting re Tim's first scan.

Braysdown must have been very cramped to work at peak times, and WTT suggests that all outgoings were tripped across to the more capacious Writhlington Sidings, and thence back to Radstock yard for sorting and despatch north or south.

Anyway, many thanks for the fresh input on broader Braysdown matters!

ATB

Steve

[grovenor-2685]

My memory suggested thast there should be some LSWR templates in section 23 of our digest. However checking there is only some plain track and this slip.

[essdee]

Thank you Keith!

Yes indeed - I was delighted to come across Bob Bourne's splendid re-creation of the single slip (for the much-lamented St.Merryn?); and I was able thence to derive a 1:6 version using LSWR drawings and splice on a second slip to create my double version. Finally, it required to be curved slightly to fit the site........ big, steep learning curve there.

The foul July weather has been a great incentive to get this, and the associated six plain turnouts for the screens complex, cosmetically chaired with Exactoscale chairs over recent weeks.

Onwards....

ATB

Steve

[Winander]

I was delighted to come across Bob Bourne's splendid re-creation of the single slip

After reading this, I wonder if you have seen these drawings? https://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html#LSWR_dwgs

[essdee]

Thank you Richard - that's a valuable resource indeed.

I am not sure that I have registered this before, although the D.Wroe archive sounds familiar. Certainly, some of those drawings match what I had copied to me from, Derek Genzel - I see it was 19 years ago now.

It is now 'on file',

Thanks,

Steve