New Product - British Finescale B7 Turnout Kits in P4

[bécasse]

Lochty NBR foreshortened somewhat I suspect as I am told that the model is 8 feet long, I have appended an extract of the 25" OS map with 100 metre (1,31 metres in 4mm scale) squares superimposed for comparison.

One of the other issues with the points apart from the tie-bar might be the sleepering, IIRC the NBR tended to use interlaced sleepering on pointwork. If it did, it was in good company, the LNWR, inter-alia, was a significant user. I wonder if the new P4 kits could be built with interlaced sleepering part-substituted? (I don't see the 8'-6"/9'-0" issue as being that significant, it might be a nuisance but it isn't that difficult to add 1mm width - 40 thou plasticard - to each end of each sleeper.)

Lochty100msq.jpg

[Jol Wilkinson]

I agree with Paul's comments and think that the layout pictured shows what can be done with some thought into using these "standard" turnouts. If total prototype accuracy is a must, then the only way is to build the track required.
.
Pre-group companies adopted individual approaches to their track design. The attached shows examples of what the LNWR was doing in 1909.

LNWR track drawings.pdf

[Martin Wynne]

Lochty NBR foreshortened somewhat I suspect as I am told that the model is 8 feet long, I have appended an extract of the 25" OS map with 100 metre (1,31 metres in 4mm scale) squares superimposed for comparison.

One of the other issues with the points apart from the tie-bar might be the sleepering, IIRC the NBR tended to use interlaced sleepering on pointwork. If it did, it was in good company, the LNWR, inter-alia, was a significant user. I wonder if the new P4 kits could be built with interlaced sleepering part-substituted? (I don't see the 8'-6"/9'-0" issue as being that significant, it might be a nuisance but it isn't that difficult to add 1mm width - 40 thou plasticard - to each end of each sleeper.)

The REA/SRC "B" flexible switches (EMGS B-6, Finetrax B-7) were introduced in 1925, so won't have been used by any pre-grouping company.

But I don't think being ultra-prototypical is the purpose of them. The idea is to get folks started in their chosen gauge.

Martin.

[Paul Willis]

But I don't think being ultra-prototypical is the purpose of them. The idea is to get folks started in their chosen gauge.

Martin.

This...

Best,
Paul

[Hardwicke]

These are a welcome addition to an almost RTR point, but doesn't have the flexibility of an Exactoscale or ply and rivet.

To use an obvious pun, that's not the point...

Once someone new to P4 has become confident and familiar with our flavour of finescale modelling, then perhaps they will progress to other techniques. In the meantime, they will be an excellent introduction and a great way of getting something built that is almost certainly accurate and quick to build without errors and flaws.

Best,
Paul

I think anything to get more P4 is a benefit.

[steve howe]

Sometimes it's easier to work with the grain, rather than don a hairshirt and work against it...

Best,
Paul

I totally agree! We needed a B7 crossover to complete the last section of the Watermouth Branch and I opted for the B F kits because you know...? life's too short!

Steve

(thats not counting the B6/B8/B9 tandem and two more B6 turnouts I have to build for the loco depot!)

[steamraiser]

As the BS4 (Bristol) group decided to have a modelling get together today, I decided to take along one of the new P4 Finetrax point hits to assemble.

IMG_20230725_134850_MP.jpg

Some of the BS4 group.

I opened the point kit and read the instructions.
The first stage was to cut two pieces of rail and slide in place.

IMG_20230725_115022_MP.jpg

After that again following the instructions I added the two wing rails.

IMG_20230725_121621_MP.jpg

You will note the rail heads do not quite line up. I will look to tweak this later.
This was followed by adding the pre shaped splice rails.

IMG_20230725_121849_MP.jpg

The next job was to add the check rails, slightly flaring the ends followed by the stock rails.

IMG_20230725_132729_MP.jpg

You will also note that I have added the stretcher bar and two pins in place.
What was noticeable was that the first two sleepers from the toe of point were fitted with slide chairs not ordinary chairs.

IMG_20230725_132756_MP.jpg

The assembled turnout with an rtr Bachman wagon with drop in wheels, testing each other.

IMG_20230725_135813_MP.jpg

IMG_20230725_135842_MP.jpg

This took me about three hours to build.

Now my observations based on that this kit may be some ones first attempt at building a point / turnout:
a) The first two sleepers should be fitted with normal chairs not slide chairs.
b) All the lengths of of the individual pieces of rail should have their lengths included in the instructions.
c) A couple of plastic fishplates would be useful to isolate the crossing assembly from the closure and switch rails.
d) Tools and Materials list super glue, but I did not see it mentioned in the instructions.
e) Tie bar is in fact a stretcher bar.
f) The splice rails are too short. The running line centre to siding centre should be a minimum of 15ft. The splice rails should be 6mm longer.
g) The length of planing on the switch blades for a B switch should be 7ft 4".

Having made all of the above observations, none of which I see as a major problem to correct, I think the Society should be congratulated on seeing this product through to production.
I will be building another kit to use with this turnout on a test track.

I will now duck into my bunker until August.

Gordon Ashton

[CornCrake]

It looks to me as though the first two timbers are missing on your kit, and that the tie bar should go between the 1st & 2nd timber that is in your picture as that web is slightly offset and has the notch for the tie bar. That would explain why the first two timbers have slide chairs. SUggest you check against an appropiate Templot template.
Steve

[grovenor-2685]

d) Tools and Materials list super glue, but I did not see it mentioned in the instructions.

Page 13, ie last page of the instructions.
I agree with CornCrake re missing timbers, which should have shown up when the point blades had to be shortened.
No mention in the instructions of putting a set in the curved stock rail.
They do look pretty good though.

[steamraiser]

Hi Steve, as I said I was following the Finetrax instructions.
Templot B7 has 31 sleepers while the point kit has 32 sleepers. C&L Templates show 33 sleepers.
Templot B7, C&L B7 templates and the instructions show the stretcher bar between the 2nd and 3rd sleepers.

Thank you Grosvenor I had missed that reference to super glue. I would have put that at the start of the instructions.
I should have read more carefully.

As to timbers I have the three timbers before the stretcher bar, just the first two have the wrong chairs.
There is no need for two extra 8ft 6" timbers to be fitted with slide chairs.

Interestingly the left hand point has the correct full chairs on the first two sleepers.
Gordon

[Jeremy Good]

Gordon

Thanks for your comments on this kit.

I think the turnout base for that one is missing 2/3 timbers. Can you have a look at it against the template I attached to this thread which forms part of the kit instructions please rather than the Templot one you have used? I think this will show where the issue lies as the tie bar should fit in the slot that is shown in your photo between the first and second timbers. Certainly on the test builds this is where it sits between the third and fourth timbers. Hopefully the photo below will show what I mean.

IMG_4112.jpeg

This also, possibly, explains the issue with the rail lengths as they will definitely be too short and the slide chairs will be in the wrong place if the turnout base itself is 2 sleepers short.

The issues you have indicated did not occur in the test builds and don’t affect the production kits I have, nor the kit Tony Wilkins has had to review for the S4News. I am hoping this is a one-off problem.

I have dropped you a PM so we can sort this out for you.

Jeremy

PS - Having built several in both OO and P4 and understood the design/build process, a build time of under an hour a turnout is possible.

[Martin Wynne]

Templot B7 has 31 sleepers while the point kit has 32 sleepers.

Hi Gordon,

The published Finetrax template is identical to the Templot P4 B-7 template -- but only if the latter is set to all the defaults, i.e. REA B-switch (not GWR), regular-pattern V-crossing, with default entry-straight, 1:7 RAM (not CLM), P4 flangeways (not exact scale). Any change to those settings would change the overall length of the template and possibly the timber-count.

Here are the two templates superimposed:



The two timbers at the switch front should have S1J joint chairs on the first timber, and S1 ordinary chairs on the second timber. For an REA B-switch there should then be 6 P chairs (slide chairs) on each side.

It looks as though the first 2 timbers in your photo have been broken off and gone missing.

cheers,

Martin.

[Jeremy Good]

Martin,

Thanks for confirming the settings to use in Templot to replicate these turnout templates. Hopefully that’ll help those planning to use the kits to plan track formations with them.

Jeremy

[steamraiser]

Thanks Martin.

Gordon

[steamraiser]

Martin W and Chairman Jeremy,
I accept that I am missing the first two sleepers on the toe of the point. Once I had taken that into account every thing fell correctly in to place.
I had the Templot settings that Martin suggested. Having printed the Template out I agree that by placing the point on the Templot template that they match.

Happier bunny.

Gordon

[steamraiser]

Here is my second go at building a Finetrax point kit. This one has all the sleepers.

IMG_20230727_100944_MP (2).jpg

This was built as per the instructions.
I have not fixed anything in place yet as I intend to add a pair of C&L fishplates between the closure rails and the crossing assembly.

This one took just short of three hours to build in a club environment. Lots of distractions.

Will lengths of matching plain P4 track be produced by Finetrax?

Those of the Bristol group who attended our modelling day were pretty impressed with the kit, the ease of assembly and the assembled article.

Gordon

[steve howe]

Are the stock rails simple plain rail? I ask because the entry to the crossover I have to build will be set about 75mm in from the baseboard joint and I would like to extend the approach track by substituting longer rail without having to put in extra short rails.

Steve

[Tony Wilkins]

Are the stock rails simple plain rail? I ask because the entry to the crossover I have to build will be set about 75mm in from the baseboard joint and I would like to extend the approach track by substituting longer rail without having to put in extra short rails.

Steve

Hi Steve.
Certainly, as far as I could see the components are all made from code 75 BH rail. Probably C&L.
Regards
Tony.

[steamraiser]

Hello Steve,

Yes the stock rails each one piece of plain code 75 bullhead rail.

Gordon

[philip-griffiths]

One of the aspects of P4 modelling which I have found easier has been turnout construction - until it comes to the tie bar mechanism. This has always been my Achilles heel. I’d be interested to know whether the tie bars used in this kit are available separately.

Regards.

[steamraiser]

Please find below a copy of a reply I had from Wayne of Finetrax in response to an enquiry I made:

I can see that the knuckle has been incorrectly positioned (difficult without the template). The knuckle position is mark by a blue line on the template. There is also a matching visual line/groove on the actual resin base.

I have attached a photo showing what I mean. You can see the knuckle position is different on your build compared to the template.

The template also shows the correct position of the check and wing rails, including the exact position where you should bend them to give the check rail ‘flare’. It’s also important to the bents in the correct position, otherwise this can cause the check rails to deform and cause the flange way gaps to narrow.

You will find stock runs through more smoothly once this is correct. Also also important that the resin base is glued down perfectly flat! Any curling of the base will upset the tight tolerances, especially with P4.

But apart from that, you’ve done a great job! Would you mind sharing this information on the forum page, and maybe mention that I’ve been trying to sign up and participate in the forum?

Thanks,
Wayne Kinney
Managing Director at British Finescale

Attached was

B7 Fine trax.JPG

And a B7 template saved as a PDF. You will need Adobe Accrobat to open the templates to full size.

Gordon

[Steve Carter]

But apart from that, you’ve done a great job! Would you mind sharing this information on the forum page, and maybe mention that I’ve been trying to sign up and participate in the forum?

Thanks,
Wayne Kinney
Managing Director at British Finescale

A reminder that whilst quite a lot of the Forum is available to be read by non-members, posting and access to the members area is only for Society members. I believe our Chairman has advised Wayne of this and has suggested to him that he can post in the moderated Guest Book section of the Forum or he will be very welcome to join the Society of course.

[Martin Wynne]

.
James Walters has built one:

[DougN]

I did enjoy James's Youtube above. From what I could see the only way of any improvement would be to use some Exactoscale fish plates at a couple of places. I am rather keen to get a couple of kits just to have a play around with as they look great!

[JamesH]

You will have to forgive me if I have missed this in the thread, but when will these be available?

As new member and being new to P4 these kits are very appealing to me.

James