1980s Trackwork

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
47331xosIM
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1980s Trackwork

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:47 am

Hello everyone,
Having joined the Society a year ago, I decided I really do need to make some progress on trackwork. While the grand plan is a bigger layout, I am going to start with a small diorama, mainly plain track but with a couple of points and a crossover to practise track building.

Rather than blindly go forward with a bit of rail and sleepers, I felt it was logical to try and learn the construction skill with something a,kin to the track I want on the eventual layout. So can anyone point me in the right direction re prototype and acquiring the necessary bits please?

The eventual layout will be part of the ECML around York, circa 1980-1985. A friend has loaned me his 2mm Society ‘Track’ and all about it book, from which I have deduced, looking at photos from the time that the real railway would have been flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers. Does this sound right? I must admit, the C&L website confuses me (my problem not the website I think!) but I don’t think they do concrete sleepers. I have found references to somebody producing such things, but I think they are no longer available. I have realised that the Society does concrete sleepers, but they don’t use chairs do they - what do modellers do in those cases?

One other query is points and switched crossings - would they have been timber at this time, or concrete sleepers too?

Any help from a P4 newbie would be gratefully appreciated.

Richie

Terry Bendall
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:10 pm

Hi Richie

Welcome! I don't claim to be an expert but the following may help.

The best way to check the proptotype is to find some pictures of your chosen location in the correct period and go from there. Probably most plain track would be flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers but turnouts will probably be FB rail on timber sleepers

The C&L website see https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/examiningproductrange lists "concrete" sleeprs made from plastic with moulded on pandrol clips which flat bottom rail will slide into. Both the rail and the sleepers should be readily available from C&L.

At the moment the Society store does not have concrete sleepers for FB rail listed for P4.

Colin Craig, who is a Society member, did start to produce a range of FB turnouts some years back but currently they are not available. They may become available in the future but at the moment there does not appear to be a time scale for that. Phil Reid of C&L told me a couple of weeks back that he hopes to have kits for FB rail available in the autumn.

Hope that helps. Send me a PM if you want some more help.

Terry Bendall

alan@york
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby alan@york » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:16 pm

It all depends as to which bit of the ECML you're doing: running lines, or running lines plus sidings...
Even now there is a mixture of chaired BH, Pandrol FB, and clip FB around York station itself.
alan@york

47331xosIM
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby 47331xosIM » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:38 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:Hi Richie

Welcome! I don't claim to be an expert but the following may help.

The best way to check the proptotype is to find some pictures of your chosen location in the correct period and go from there. Probably most plain track would be flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers but turnouts will probably be FB rail on timber sleepers

The C&L website see https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/examiningproductrange lists "concrete" sleeprs made from plastic with moulded on pandrol clips which flat bottom rail will slide into. Both the rail and the sleepers should be readily available from C&L.

At the moment the Society store does not have concrete sleepers for FB rail listed for P4.

Colin Craig, who is a Society member, did start to produce a range of FB turnouts some years back but currently they are not available. They may become available in the future but at the moment there does not appear to be a time scale for that. Phil Reid of C&L told me a couple of weeks back that he hopes to have kits for FB rail available in the autumn.

Hope that helps. Send me a PM if you want some more help.

Terry Bendall


Hi Terry,
Many thanks - you were one of the first to welcome me 12 months ago when I put a post in the introduction thread - so appropriate that your the first on here too! Thanks for the background, I have been looking through endless photographs just recently, but not being very knowledgeable on track I am finding it hard to differentiate the two types. I'll have another look at C&L from that link. Ah yes it was the Colin Craig ones that I found advertised and no longer available I believe.

I had seen 4FT103A which is concrete sleepers for bullhead, then seen the entry two down for flat bottomed rail and totally missed that it was for OO gauge! You may regret the offer of a PM!! :P

alan@york wrote:It all depends as to which bit of the ECML you're doing: running lines, or running lines plus sidings...
Even now there is a mixture of chaired BH, Pandrol FB, and clip FB around York station itself.
alan@york


Hi Alan,
Thanks for that, I am thinking a couple of running lines and a couple of sidings for this initial test bed and diorama, aside from anything it will allow me to practice the weathering on different types of running line and ballast. I had not realised that bullhead rail was still around at York. I do have a bit of a hankering to model Holgate Junction longer-term , as I think the track work would look fantastic, but I also feel its way out of my skill set at the moment!!!

Richie

Terry Bendall
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:10 pm

47331xosIM wrote:I do have a bit of a hankering to model Holgate Junction longer-term , as I think the track work would look fantastic, but I also feel its way out of my skill set at the moment!!!


Having just found a picture of that junction, I think many experienced people would struggle with it! :) As with many othet things, start with something relatively simple and straightforward and then progress from there.

Picture 1.jpg


This might be helpful to show some different types of track. It is is a shot of part of Elcot Road which is set in August 1988. It has to be that specific because of the stock in use. The line in the forgorund is the bay platform road whuich uses flat bottom track and Colin Craig BR2 type rail fixings which should just be visable. For third rail they should be BR3 type but when the layout was built I did not know they were available. It won't get changed now.

The main platform road and the loop beyond are FB rail with Pan 10 type pandrol clips also from Colin Criag. Both type of FB rail are on "wooden" sleepers - actually copper clad ones. Beyond is the yard with bullhead rail made using Exactoscale components.

Ballast is 2mm scale ballast laid and painted using an airbursh with Railmatch sleeper grime being the main colour. The sides of the rails are painted with a "rust" colour before the track is sprayed. In the forground the surface is real steam loco ash crushed and sieved. This is a diffrent colour from the ash from a domestic fire.

Picture 6.jpg


And for a bit of fun the other end of the bay.

Terry Bendall
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Julian Roberts
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:49 pm

Happened to be changing trains at York yesterday, platform 10 is almost entirely bullhead, though spring clips instead of wooden keys - doubtful that detail is worth trying to model....!

20220401_123332.jpg


Platform 11 Pandrols, FB on baseplates on wooden sleepers.

20220401_123227.jpg


AWS ramp. Don't know if this incorporates TWPS which wouldn't be appropriate in 1980s

20220401_123407.jpg


Concrete sleepers with Pandrols turnout at Northallerton including switch details. Haven't seen anyone talking about modelling a cast crossing! Noticeable that there is no fishplate between the crossing and switch on the closure rail on the main line, but there is on the turnout route.
20220401_140606.jpg

20220401_140650.jpg


20220401_140703.jpg

20220401_140747.jpg

20220401_140834.jpg

Lastly a void (?) under just two or three sleepers which won't exactly be desirable or possible to model :o


I don't know if you were needing such prototype information. I certainly concur, try building one turnout before you commit to a whole project but have fun! :thumb
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stevemcclary
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby stevemcclary » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:38 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Noticeable that there is no fishplate between the crossing and switch on the closure rail on the main line, but there is on the turnout route.

Julian,
The two fishplates on the diverge route of the points are Insulated Rail Joints (IRJs). These are used for the track circuit bonding and effectively prevent the crossing shorting all the rails together. The electrical bonding connections can be seen either side of the joint.

More recent installations where the train detection utilises axle counters instead of track circuits remove the need for these IRJs and bonding connections, allowing all the rails to be electrically bonded -making life much easier for the electrification traction return.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Hardwicke
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:12 pm

47331xosIM wrote:Hello everyone,

The eventual layout will be part of the ECML around York, circa 1980-1985.

One other query is points and switched crossings - would they have been timber at this time, or concrete sleepers too?

Any help from a P4 newbie would be gratefully appreciated.

Richie

Hello Richie,
1980's ECML would likely have turnouts with wooden sleepers unless they had been upgraded in the previous 10 years when some were concrete. Mid 70s there was a major upgrade in preparation for speeding up and HST use, prior to electrification in the 80s. As noted, bulhead and wooden sleeper flatbottomed track still exists at York today.
I feel track and signalling from the 1950s onwards is a massive gap in 4mm modelling. You can't buy accurate Westinghouse signals. Track is virtually unobtainable. A kit in FB had been informally hinted at in P4 Track Company when I spoke to Len and Andrew years ago, but that seems so unlikely now. Reality is handbuilt FB track.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:16 pm

47331xosIM wrote:Hello
Any help from a P4 newbie would be gratefully appreciated.

Richie

This might be insightful too...
https://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articl ... anent-way/
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:20 pm

And this thread on this forum
viewtopic.php?t=6496
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:18 pm

I've looked at pictures of ECML and York in the 80's and there was a lot of wooden sleepers and bullhead track around. In York, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but concrete sleepers were only really on the Up and Down Main lines outside of the station confines.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

Phil O
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Phil O » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:55 pm

Back in the mid 80's I was an associate member of the PWI, and they held a seminar for heritage railways at Armley Mills, Leeds. On the Sunday morning a trip to York station was part of the course, we went up onto the roof and had some amazing views over the city, but the main reason was to see the new track layout. The South end was virtually all on concrete bearers, this was because the approaches were virtually straight and therefore suitable for standard bearers, the North end however was done with crossing timbers, due to the opposing curves of the ECML and the Scarborough line, which meant that virtually nothing was standard and thus timbers were much more flexible for accommodating the S and C.

Cheers

Phil.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: 1980s Trackwork

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:04 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I feel track and signalling from the 1950s onwards is a massive gap in 4mm modelling. You can't buy accurate Westinghouse signals. Track is virtually unobtainable. A kit in FB had been informally hinted at in P4 Track Company when I spoke to Len and Andrew years ago, but that seems so unlikely now. Reality is handbuilt FB track.

Yesterday Wayne Kinney was hinting that he is looking at FB turnout kits in his Finetrax range, see:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/160234-us ... nt=4874052

Martin.
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