Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Martin Wynne
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Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:01 pm

.
I've been experimenting with one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08V85TH34/

to see what it is capable of. The answer is surprising -- this is EM:


Image

Image

(not the chairs).

More info and Templot developments: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... inter.340/

Note that current production versions now include a cooling fan mentioned in this video:




Martin.
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DougN
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby DougN » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:32 pm

Wow that is very cheap but appears to be very effective. As the YouTube video says people will out grow this very quickly. However fr our use on things other than rolling stock, such as your track bases and buildings the detail is more than adequate... it is a topic I would love to explore but I am so time poor for the last few years and looking to the next few I suspect it won't change.... by that time the printers will be a higher quality and the price won't have changed that much.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:03 pm

That is...impressive. To see a completed unit with stock rolling over it would be even better. But what a cracking start!

Mike

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:00 am

Martin,

what is it like for printing chairs, the other items needed for this interesting trackwork development.

Jol

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:37 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Martin, what is it like for printing chairs, the other items needed for this interesting trackwork development. Jol

Hi Jol,

It depends what you call a chair.

Generally FDM (filament) printing is the wrong technology for realistic detailed chairs in 4mm scale.

It's doable in FDM if you can accept something like this:

Image

printed integrally with the timbers.

Andrew Bannerman was doing that 6 years ago:

Image

Image

The images above are from this long archive topic from 2015: https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_2734.php

My attempts at FDM-printing something more realistic on my larger FDM printer were a dismal failure. I wouldn't expect this little FDM printer to do any better. It's doable, just, in 7mm scale.

Even then, it's only possible if you print the chairs integral with the timbers. Which means the rails need to slide in from the ends. Which is tricky with pre-bent rails, and makes complex pointwork formations all but impossible to build.

The whole purpose and intent of my Plug Track experiments is that the chairs are threaded on to the rail first, which is then dropped in place vertically, as in conventional hand track building (and the Exactoscale P4 turnout kits). It's been a constant battle of wits to get this distinction across, especially now that Wayne Kinney has introduced his slide-in pointwork kits.

It seems pointless to struggle with FDM integral chairs, when so much better results are possible with separate resin-printed chairs:

Image

Image

Image

For which you need a small resin printer, such as this one (used for the above chairs):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08FR2Y1PT/

Many modellers are now turning to these home resin printers for all sorts of modelling. So even if you don't have your own, you can probably get a friend to print some chairs for you to fit your FDM-printed timbering bases. Or have them commercially printed for you.

The two technologies are so different that it would be helpful if folks specified which they mean when talking about 3D printing.

More about Plug Track here (currently 18 pages): https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... r-cut.229/

cheers,

Martin.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Martin, how easy is the cheapo FDM printer to drive, if one is new to the art? My resin printer had a hell of a learning curve. It would be nice to think that the toy FDM machine just gets on with it.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:34 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:Martin, how easy is the cheapo FDM printer to drive, if one is new to the art? My resin printer had a hell of a learning curve. It would be nice to think that the toy FDM machine just gets on with it.

Hi Guy,

That's a piece of string question. :) Everything depends on what you want to print.

Point-motor bracket? - easy. Signal box steps in one piece? - forget it. Signal box steps in kit form as separate steps and slotted side stringers? - easy peasy.

In terms of controls and software, the toy printer is exactly the same as larger FDM printers. It even has the same electronics motherboard as some of them. The difference is that it's much smaller and lighter and less robust, and also slower. The end results are the same, but it's not a thing you would rely on to earn a living.

If you have been using a resin printer, you already know the difficult bit -- the CAD design to create the 3D model. Once you have the STL or other 3D file you are away. And for the Plug Track it is Templot which creates the STL files for you. So you can skip the difficult bit, no CAD program or CAD skills are needed for Plug Track from Templot.

The STL has to be sliced, but instead of using an image slicer program such as Chitubox, for FDM you use a gcode generator program such as Cura (free) to generate the nozzle path for each layer. If you choose to use one of the default quality settings in Cura, it's just a few clicks to generate the gcode file and save it on an SD card. Bung the card in the printer and press Go. Or use Cura to send the file to the printer over the USB cable and control the printer from within Cura.

For the children there are some ready-to-go gcode files on the SD card, and an extremely basic 3D CAD modelling program which Easythreed freely admit isn't very good.

If you already have some STL models, it would be worth downloading Cura:

https://ultimaker.com/software/ultimaker-cura

and try slicing them at different quality settings. There is a Preview function which shows you the nozzle path for each layer, the likely print time, amount of polymer used, etc.

On the other hand, if you choose not to use the Cura defaults, there are 10,000 settings for customizing the process of building up a finished part from extruded polymer -- different temperatures, flow rates, fill density, the geometry of the nozzle path to create the desired sizes, surface finish, strength, etc. Plus there are physical changes you can make such as changing the nozzle size (not on the toy printer), or using different polymers. The toy printer is reported as being very good with TPU (synthetic rubber) to create flexible parts such as model road tyres. It's an entire hobby in itself.

The toy printer doesn't have zero-backlash stepper drives or support backlash compensation. That's important for accurate results, so I have written a utility in Templot to add backlash correction to any gcode file, which is working quite well. It's just one click in Templot to apply it to any file.

cheers,

Martin.
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David Thorpe

Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby David Thorpe » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:14 am

How long did it take to print the trackbase shown in your original picture?

DT

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:24 pm

David Thorpe wrote:How long did it take to print the trackbase shown in your original picture?

Hi David,

With the settings I was using (for timbers 2.7mm thick), about 3 hours.

It could be speeded up if necessary. Most obviously by using thinner timbers. But that makes fitting the Plug Track chairs a lot more fiddly.

The maximum nozzle speed in the specs is 40mm/sec. I used 30mm/sec to be on the safe side and hopefully get better accuracy. The time could also be reduced by using thicker layers, I used 0.1mm. I imagine 0.15mm layers would work equally well for a part such as this. But bear in mind that a 33% increase in nozzle speed and a 50% increase in layer thickness would mean a near doubling of the extruder melt/flow rate, with likely effects on print quality.

Some time could also be saved by printing multiple templates in one go. In 4mm scale it would be possible to print double-track or a crossover within the available build area of this little printer. That is the intended idea for Plug Track, the individual timbering "bricks" clip together to create a full timbering "wall" or track base for an entire track plan:

Image

More info: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... -plan.295/

In practice the time doesn't much matter because the machine runs unattended. You just need to plan ahead. While building a B-7 turnout today, the machine can be chuntering away printing the bases for a B-8 turnout tomorrow.

Larger machines can obviously run faster, but not significantly so if you want accurate prints. That print was spot on -- all timbers are accurate to width, length and spacing within 0.05mm, which is the claimed resolution of the printer, similar to larger printers. It took me quite a lot of trial and error and tweaking the settings to get that result, but it is entirely repeatable now, and all the details will be posted on the Templot Club forum as the experiment progresses.

cheers,

Martin.
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Hardwicke
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:07 pm

I see the price has risen to £98.98
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Paul Willis
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:11 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I see the price has risen to £98.98


That's Amazon for you...

The software tracks the number of views of the item, and the price can be automatically increased as a result of the interest.

This is a DAMHIK - between opening the link from Jim S-W on his El Cheapo lathe and pressing Buy It Now at the end of the day, the price on the same page went up from £39.99 to £42.99. Not sufficient to break the bank, but annoying nevertheless...

Cheers
Paul
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www.5522models.co.uk

David Thorpe

Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:20 am

Paul, your cheapo lathe is even cheaper now - £30.99!

DT
Last edited by David Thorpe on Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:51 am

Have you got a link to that, David? It was still £98.98 on Amazon when I looked a couple of minutes ago.

I shan't be getting one as things stand. Unless suitable printed/moulded chairs become available to complement the track bases that can be made on these, there seems little point. Spending another £220 plus on a suitable MSLA (Elegoo or similar) printer which I would be unlikely to use for much else without learning how to use 3D Cad has little attraction.

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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby stephenfreeman » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:12 am

No. I won't be buying one either, reason is I already have an FDM printer which I haven't had time to play with, despite assembling it about 3 years ago. I can see it's use for lots of things other than sleepers etc but I am coveting a resin printer suitable for chairs but not just yet. No doubt when Martin gets a bit further and/or I have more time i will be exploring the possibilities of 3D printing.

David Thorpe

Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:50 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Have you got a link to that, David? It was still £98.98 on Amazon when I looked a couple of minutes ago.


Sorry Jol, I was referring to Paul's cheapo lathe, not the 3D thingy - I've altered my posting to clarify.

DT

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:14 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I shan't be getting one as things stand. Unless suitable printed/moulded chairs become available to complement the track bases that can be made on these, there seems little point. Spending another £220 plus on a suitable MSLA (Elegoo or similar) printer which I would be unlikely to use for much else without learning how to use 3D Cad has little attraction.

Hi Jol,

The chairs will be standard sizes which could be mixed and matched with friends, or printed for you by commercial 3D printing firms.

Whereas the timbering bases are likely to be bespoke one-offs to match your layout, which you may want to be in full control of.

Note also that it's possible to print the bases without the chair sockets for use with injection-moulded chairs such as C&L/Exactoscale. For that ideally you would need a larger FDM printer so that you can print ABS, ASA, or HIPS polymer. Butanone solvent doesn't work on the common PLA polymer used on the little printer, it would need to be cyano superglue.

Image

The little printer is available at lower cost on eBay, search for "EasyThreed X1". But bear in mind that only production since November 2020 has the built-in cooling fan and the higher resolution 32:1 stepper gearboxes. Some suppliers are likely to have older stock.

cheers,

Martin.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:12 am

Hardwicke wrote:I see the price has risen to £98.98

Or for £10 more it seems you can have this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09KV7BKYX

with a larger bed area 120mm x 120mm which would be well worth having. Also the Z drive uses a screw instead of a timing belt.

I know nothing about it, other than the link which appeared in my inbox today.

cheers,

Martin.
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sebring115
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby sebring115 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:41 pm

Or avoid Amazon and get a https://www.crealityofficial.co.uk/prod ... UNEALw_wcB

Creality ender for 145, sometimes Amazon is way over priced

Mark

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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby LesGros » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:05 pm

Jol draws attention to a valid point, which is that there is a learning overhead to be considered.

Simple objects can drawn easily in a variety of CAD packages; the key factor being that the package is able to be output models in a suitable format. More detailed work requires a significant effort which whilst rewarding, is very time consuming, especially when working from scratch. It is also somewhat addictive, and can distract from other aspects of model railway layout building.

It is helpful to think of the process as being a tool chain thus:

Creative Idea > CAD 3D model > Mesh format file ( *.STL) > gcode file ( *.gcode) > CNC machine > Finished component>

Some manufacturers now offer integrated software packages which contain all the requirement for their offering.

Note that the CNC machine can be: 3D filament printer ( FDP) / 3D resin printer/ Laser cutter/ CNC milling machine/ Card cutting machine. Each type of machine has strengths, and weaknesses depending upon the resolution, or fineness of the required finished object. Each type of machine requires the investment in time and additional tools for optimum benefit.

In the case of 4mm scale track parts, sleeper underlays have been proved with FDP machines. Resin printers have been shown to provide the detail required for chairs, and other fine parts.

The consideration of which are the best plastics to use for which components, is ongoing; much praise to Martin for pursuing this as a logical extension of his Templot Masterwork.

A significant benefit of the CNC toolchain is that, with operator competence, it can enable both rapid prototyping, and easy repeatability. Compare the fold-up chair etch, and copper clad, with resin printed chairs to slot into gauge set sleepers.

Bottom line? Rule one applies: and both methods can be rewarding for modellers.

edited to correct typos
LesG

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never made anything useful

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:54 pm

sebring115 wrote:Or avoid Amazon and get a https://www.crealityofficial.co.uk/prod ... UNEALw_wcB

Creality ender for 145, sometimes Amazon is way over priced

Hi Mark,

On the other hand:

+VAT? +difficulty returning it to Czech if faulty? +doesn't fit on a bookshelf.

But most significantly it comes as kit:



-- the little X1 comes ready to use, so price comparisons are meaningless.

I agree that the larger work area is definitely worth having for printing timbering bases.

cheers,

Martin.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:18 pm

LesGros wrote:Jol draws attention to a valid point, which is that there is a learning overhead to be considered. ... ... ... The consideration of which are the best plastics to use for which components, is ongoing; much praise to Martin for pursuing this as a logical extension of his Templot Masterwork.

Thanks Les.

Just to add that as far as the Plug Track from Templot is concerned, there is no learning overhead for any CAD skills needed. Templot does all the work, the exported STL files are ready for the printing/laser-cutting process.

Which is not to say there might be no learning overhead in using Templot. :)

With version 233a released yesterday, individual chairs can now be switched on and off. Which means you can get round my lamentable failure to get the special chairs done yet, by removing the sockets from the relevant timbers. Which could then have C&L/Exactoscale chairs used on them instead (use cyano superglue if printed in PLA polymer). In other words, you can get this far in Plug Track now:

Image

Image

Which is progress of a sort, but still a long way to go.

cheers,

Martin.
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LesGros
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby LesGros » Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:35 am

Martin Wynne wrote;

. . . Just to add that as far as the Plug Track from Templot is concerned, there is no learning overhead for any CAD skills needed. Templot does all the work, the exported STL files are ready for the printing/laser-cutting process.

Which is not to say there might be no learning overhead in using Templot. :) . . .


Martin,
I think you are being a bit over-modest. From where I stand, TEMPLOT IS a CAD package. The fact that it is designed to your exacting requirements, with a different concept from most familiar CAD offerings merely emphasises the point. :thumb

I am now looking forward to getting to it in the New Year. This development provides a motivation to re-acquaint myself with Templot; with a view to making a "Demo in a file Box" layout to practice the required skill set.
LesG

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never made anything useful

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Child's toy £88 3D printer can print precision turnout bases.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:02 pm

LesGros wrote:From where I stand, TEMPLOT IS a CAD package. The fact that it is designed to your exacting requirements, with a different concept from most familiar CAD offerings merely emphasises the point. :thumb

Hi Les,

Of course, words can mean different things to different folks.

I prefer to say that Templot is not a CAD program, because otherwise intending users with CAD skills expect it to work in a certain way, and can get a bit grumpy when they find that it doesn't. It's better to control expectations from the start. :)

The usual expected feature of a CAD program is that it behaves as a virtual drawing board. You draw a line on it, and the line becomes part of the design in some way -- a wall, an electrical connection, a gearbox.

Templot does not work that way -- drawing a line on the screen does not create a length of track. This differs from almost all other track planning software which does generally call itself CAD, such as XTrackCad, 3rd PlanIt, Cadrail, for example.

cheers,

Martin.
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