Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
kevini

Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby kevini » Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:21 pm

Hello,

I am about to order some items to make my first straight/s in P4 and it will eventually go onto a GWR layout in Cornwall (Penzance inspiration maybe) around 1925.

I am assuming I will order:

Exactoscale 2 bolt chairs
A few lengths of 50cm nickel track (it will be built in an outside workshop)
Ply sleepers
Fishplates
Butanol

A few questions:
1) Should I go for 0.8mm or 1.6mm ply sleepers from C&L or a different supplier?
2) What lengths should I build the straights to? 50cm or a specific prototypical panel length?
3) What about chair types and layout? Alternate facing? I am not what usual running direction the track will be in yet.
4) I was going to use 2 x triangular society gauges to lay out + a mint gauge to check....seem OK?
5) I was going to use a simple templot template to build on or would you recommend one of the society or C&L ones?
6) How would the fishplate joints work and at what lengths? Brassmaster ones glued on?
7) I was thinking of soaking the sleepers for say an hour in dark oak stain before building....OK?
8) Layout will be DCC so should I solder drops direct to bottom of rails or use some sort of tags to solder wires onto?
9) Should I leave airbrushing the track weathering until after it is laid and debugged?
10) Can someone recommend a simple maybe RTR "check wagon" to push along completed track panels as a check

Help/suggestions most welcome.
If the above goes OK then onwards to points...or is it switches....or....turnouts????

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John Donnelly
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:55 pm

Until two years ago I'd never built any track from scratch but, for what it's worth, as far as my track laying is concerned:

1. For plain track, I went for 0.8mm ply but got someone I know to laser cut them for me although I am using the turnouts timbers as sold by the society.

2. I'm building mine as 120' panels with dummy fishplates where the 60' panel would end. I offset the real fishplates (Exactoscale plastic) one's with the dummy ones so that the real joins are always a 60' panel apart to try and avoid kinks.

3. As far as possible I've got the keys going in the right direction for travel with alternate facing in sidings.

4. I use a half a dozen on the normal gauges and a mint gauge but I do have a triangular gauge as well.

5. Mine is all build on a Templot template but built directly on the trackbed rather than on the bench.

6. All my fishplates are Exactoscale plastic with, as per point 2 the real joins offset by 60'.

7. I 'stained' mine with a felt tip pen.

8. I've soldered droppers directly to the bottom of the rail.

9. That's what I've done, paint goes no where near until fully tested.

10. I use a Bachmann Brake Van with a set of Gibson wheels with no compensation or springing.

Hope the above is of some use.

John

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Rod Cameron » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:02 pm

Hi Kevin, welcome. Some answers to your questions (other views are available):

1) Depends on whether you are going all ply and butanone or might consider ply-and-rivet. Personally I would use thin sleepers so you have the option of riveting them, especially for pointwork. Have a look at https://www.scaleforum.org/demonstrator ... ron-lewes/ to see how I've mixed the two methods.

2) There's no need to build individual panels. Use lengths as long as you can between pointwork and notch the railhead to simulate rail lengths according to your prototype.

3) Whatever is suitable for 1925 GWR (don't ask me!). Keys are normally hammered in the direction of travel, but there are many nuances due to gradient, bi-directionality etc.

4) You probably won't need a mint gauge for plain track, but you will (and a flangeway gauge) for pointwork.

5) You can specify panel length in Templot (45ft, 60ft etc) and there may be GWR options (see 3))!

6) Or soldered. Don't forget insulated plastic ones where you need electrical gaps.

7) Experiment to get the right appearance.

8) Either, the choice is yours.

9) Probably - and ballasting.You can also glue down sleepers and ballast at the same time before fixing rail, but this of course masks the rail on the template ...

10) The Masokits defect detection vehicle is quite handy (item 11.15 in their catalogue), but a rewheeled RTR wagon would do.

HTH
Rod

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Noel
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Noel » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:37 pm

Rod Cameron wrote: You can specify panel length in Templot (45ft, 60ft etc) and there may be GWR options (see 3))!


According to "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice" 60ft rails were not used until 1929, so the standard length on the main line would have been 45ft or 44ft 6ins depending on which rail section was used. Branches sometimes saw reused worn main line rails where heavy axle loadings or heavy traffic were not required [or might have new but lighter section rail], and sidings might see even older rails, which had seen more than one previous use. In either case such older rail could well be in shorter lengths.
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Noel

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Winander
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Winander » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:03 pm

Hello and welcome.

Thin sleepers use less ballast, our stores stock them and chairs. Go for the Exactoscale brand of chairs as they are better, having less flash.
You say you are putting it in an outside workshop. From a discussion on here, the general consensus was to restrict rails to 500mm to allow for rail expansion. Whatever multiple of your track panel length would suit, the panels within a rail length can be delineated by saw cuts into the rail head.
Use a long wheelbase wagon with no suspension to check trackwork. Ensure it is level and square by testing it on a glass plate. I use a Grampus wagon.
Templot will allow you to configure just about anything to do with track, for the current purposes, track panel length and sleeper spacing. Some (many?) companies put the last two sleepers in a panel closer together and it even lets you do that.
Experiment with the effects of staining sleepers but ensure they are completely dry before use. Adjustments are easy, just slip a blade under the chair and it will part from the wood.

Good luck, keep us posted on progress and don't be afraid of asking questions, we rarely, if ever, bite.
p.s. it's a turnout.
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kevini

Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby kevini » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:15 pm

So it sounds like I should build 360mm panels (2 x 45ft lengths for about 1925 GWR) with a dummy fishplate at 180mm.
3 x 45ft lengths would seem to break the max recommended 500mm @ 540mm but is this close enough/OK for expansion?

Still not sure on chair direction as if I model a terminus/branch then wouldn't they be alternating direction?

0.8mm ply sleepers sounds best way to go and 9ft length sleepers seem best as 8'6" only seemed to come in a few years earlier I think so maybe not laid much by then?

What form of functional fishplate/joint is recommended then to join multiple the 360mm panels together (or onto turnouts, etc) as I assume this then needs some form of expansion gap.

Many thanks for the comments so far......:-)

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:20 pm

kevini wrote:Still not sure on chair direction as if I model a terminus/branch then wouldn't they be alternating direction?

There is a digest sheet explaining that in some detail, link to digests at top of this page.
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Keith
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John Donnelly
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:23 pm

kevini wrote:So it sounds like I should build 360mm panels (2 x 45ft lengths for about 1925 GWR) with a dummy fishplate at 180mm.
What form of functional fishplate/joint is recommended then to join multiple the 360mm panels together (or onto turnouts, etc) as I assume this then needs some form of expansion gap.


I use the functional Exactoscale plastic fishplates to join lengths of rail and I don't push the rail all the way in to allow for a bit of expansion although how much difference this makes when the rails are soldered at each board end I'm not sure. All I can say is that the layout has spent a couple of years in a room that get's down as low as about 5C when the heating is off and over 20C in summer and I've not had any expansion issues...

Image

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:30 pm

To rather endorse the last post :

I recently put all the Barnton boards up for the first time in too many years than I care to try and establish. They've been in a garage with no background heating in all that time and have therefore endured both extremes of temperature in that period, not to mention changes in humidity. I'm pleased to say that all the trackwork appears intact and that's somewhat endorsed by propelling a few recently completed wagons through it manually. Hardly scientific testing but it appears to back the "Rice" method of rivets at key and interval locations and functional chairs elsewhere. And, wherever possible, I laid full 1M (or were they 3'?) lengths (nickel silver).

By comparison, the cheap and cheerful way that I laid track for the "roundy" areas for playful running suffered from expansion very drastically a few years ago and have had to be rectified. Not sure if this helps or opens up more debate!

Lindsay

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:33 pm

kevini wrote:
What form of functional fishplate/joint is recommended then to join multiple the 360mm panels together (or onto turnouts, etc) as I assume this then needs some form of expansion gap.



I use the Peco bullhead fishplates as these are a nice fit on the rail, have cosmetic bolt heads and are about the right length. There is a slight tendency for vertical misalignment as the narrow upstand part of the fishplate can slide around a bit on the web of the rail, but in practice once aligned they stay put. I often solder one end to a rail and leave the other rail to slide.

I have built my track in half metre panels for expansion reasons; in the summer joints by a (double glazed) window had closed up quite a bit and that was without direct sunlight.

Finally, a good reference when you are looking at methods and reliability is the article in Scalefour News 206 by WE Ward-Platt, which first saw the light of day in 1965 and referred to EM - but the principles don't change and it's written in a way that makes you think about these things.

Philip

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Jeremy Suter » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:35 am

kevini wrote:So it sounds like I should build 360mm panels (2 x 45ft lengths for about 1925 GWR) with a dummy fishplate at 180mm.
3 x 45ft lengths would seem to break the max recommended 500mm @ 540mm but is this close enough/OK for expansion?

Still not sure on chair direction as if I model a terminus/branch then wouldn't they be alternating direction?

0.8mm ply sleepers sounds best way to go and 9ft length sleepers seem best as 8'6" only seemed to come in a few years earlier I think so maybe not laid much by then?

What form of functional fishplate/joint is recommended then to join multiple the 360mm panels together (or onto turnouts, etc) as I assume this then needs some form of expansion gap.

Many thanks for the comments so far......:-)



If you want 1meter long rail let me know I do have some longer postal tubes but the postage is an extra £8.
Good luck with the project
Jeremy
Last edited by Jeremy Suter on Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:55 am

kevini wrote:I am assuming I will order:

Exactoscale 2 bolt chairs
A few lengths of 50cm nickel track (it will be built in an outside workshop)
Ply sleepers
Fishplates
Butanol

Hi Kevin,

Butanol and Butanone are not the same thing. One is an alcohol and the other is a ketone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanone

The one you need is probably Butanone.

cheers,

Martin.
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Will L
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Will L » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am

kevini wrote:...Still not sure on chair direction as if I model a terminus/branch then wouldn't they be alternating direction?...

In a terminus, arriving train are braking and departing trains are accelerating, both of which would tend to push the track towards the buffers, so, in the absence of any other factors, track would tend to have the keys driven towards the buffers.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:27 am

Will L wrote:In a terminus, arriving train are braking and departing trains are accelerating, both of which would tend to push the track towards the buffers, so, in the absence of any other factors, track would tend to have the keys driven towards the buffers.

Hi Will,

Same applies to any station, it doesn't need to be a terminus.

The ganger's rule of thumb is to drive keys "towards the station, towards the river, towards the joint". In order of decreasing priority.

Towards the river means downhill. Towards the joint (on single track) means towards the nearer of the two rail joints. On the chair next to the fishplate you don't get a choice.

The second rule of thumb is -- if they keep falling out, turn them round. :)

Martin.
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:46 am

Martin Wynne wrote:
Will L wrote: In a terminus, arriving train are braking and departing trains are accelerating, both of which would tend to push the track towards the buffers, so, in the absence of any other factors, track would tend to have the keys driven towards the buffers.

Hi Will,
Same applies to any station, it doesn't need to be a terminus.

At a through station the braking and accelerating forces are in opposite directions, so not the same. But in steam era at least the acceleration forces are not in the same place.
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steve howe
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby steve howe » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:09 pm

few questions:
1) Should I go for 0.8mm or 1.6mm ply sleepers from C&L or a different supplier?
2) What lengths should I build the straights to? 50cm or a specific prototypical panel length?
3) What about chair types and layout? Alternate facing? I am not what usual running direction the track will be in yet.
4) I was going to use 2 x triangular society gauges to lay out + mint gauge to check....seem OK?
5) I was going to use a simple templot template to build on or would you recommend one of the society or C&L ones?
6) How would the fishplate joints work and at what lengths? Brassmaster ones glued on?
7) I was thinking of soaking the sleepers for say an hour in dark oak stain before building....OK?
8) Layout will be DCC so should I solder drops direct to bottom of rails or use some sort of tags to solder wires onto?
9) Should I leave airbrushing the track weathering until after it is laid and debugged?
10) Can someone recommend a simple maybe RTR "check wagon" to push along completed track panels as a check

Hi Kevin,
I went over to the plastic chairs welded to ply sleepers a while ago and it is definitely easier than sticking cosmetic chairs on afterwards :? I would say the Society sleepers are the the ones to use. I like to use a few rivets at key points like crossing vees and securing the tail ends of switch and closure rails. I think the Exactoscale chairs are superior to the brown C&L ones which seem to lack definition.

Building track in 1m lengths is cumbersome and I don't think there's much advantage, 0.5m lengths with a notch cut with a fine piercing saw every scale 60' is a lot easier. Are you using steel or NS? in our Cornish climate steel can be a bit risky, but I am convinced it has better electrical properties than nickel silver.

The triangular check gauges are easy and convenient to use, remembering that the single leg always points to the inside of the curve, but they are inclined to be a bit loose on the rail, (in my experience) the flat 'slab' type with the top clamp is my tool of choice for plain track as it holds the rail securely, it can be used 'on end' where crossing rails get in the way. I think you can never have too many track gauges!

IMHO dark oak stain looks a bit 'new' unless that's the effect your'e after, I follow Rice's recipe of black indian ink diluted about 3 - 1 with distilled water and a squirt of isopropyl sloshed about in a plastic tub for half an hour then fished out and dried. The colour finishes up a nice silvery grey, suggesting bleached wood - but then I tend to model less used byways where sleepers need to look old.

0.5mm or 0.7mm tinned copper wire (from RS) makes good rail droppers, if the layout is only viewed from one side just bend about 3mm at right angles and tuck it into the web of the rail and solder in, we always make a tag from a piece of PCB glued or pinned to the underside of the baseboard immediately adjacent to the dropper which is soldered to it and labelled, then the appropriate colour of 7 strand cable is soldered to the tag forming the feed.

Definitely don't do any painting/weathering until your'e sure everything works!

Just my random thoughts, you are welcome to come down and look at Watermouth - we need more hands!

Steve
Cornwall AG

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:19 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:At a through station the braking and accelerating forces are in opposite directions, so not the same. But in steam era at least the acceleration forces are not in the same place.

Hi Keith,

???

At any station braking is towards the station and acceleration is away from it. In both cases tending to push the rails towards the station. Regardless of a through station or terminus. So that is the way the keys are driven into the chairs -- towards the station. On all tracks. That way the wedge shaped keys are tightened by the traffic and not loosened.

cheers,

Martin.
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Noel
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Noel » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:33 pm

steve howe wrote:The colour finishes up a nice silvery grey, suggesting bleached wood - but then I tend to model less used byways where sleepers need to look old.


Newly creosoted timber is almost black, which slowly fades to a lighter brown over a prolonged period. I would associate pale grey sleepers only with long abandoned track and would question whether creosoted wood in that condition would retain enough integrity to be able to hold track to gauge at all. Certainly I find it difficult to believe that a main line railway would not have replaced sleepers long before they attained that condition, except, possibly, in a very seldom used siding well away from the risk of official notice.

Something like this now long gone engineer's siding off a disused branch, which had clearly been out of use for some time...
(The scan was taken from a gloss print.)
GreySleepers003.jpg
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steve howe
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby steve howe » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:45 pm

Like I said, I don't tend to model main lines. The final colour is down to observation of the prototype being modelled.

Steve

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Will L
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Will L » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:53 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:At a through station the braking and accelerating forces are in opposite directions, so not the same. But in steam era at least the acceleration forces are not in the same place.

Hi Keith,

???

At any station braking is towards the station and acceleration is away from it. In both cases tending to push the rails towards the station. Regardless of a through station or terminus. So that is the way the keys are driven into the chairs -- towards the station. On all tracks. That way the wedge shaped keys are tightened by the traffic and not loosened.


The point, Martin, is that at at a terminus this means the track is keyed primarily in one direction, towards buffers, which is the nice simple simple answer to Kevin question.

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Winander
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Winander » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:37 pm

If you are using a triangular gauge, check that the legs that go over the rail do not extend to grip the foot of the rail. Otherwise, if you are using plastic chairs, the rail would be fixed in a vertical position. When you remove the gauge the chairs force the rail into a 1 in 20 cant (as they are designed to do) and your track is mysteriously under gauge. If they are too long, just carefully file them until they don't touch the rail foot.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:38 pm

steve howe wrote:Definitely don't do any painting/weathering until you're sure everything works!

Hi Steve,

Agreed in general. However, if you use any 3D-printed chairs they will harden and get brittle if exposed to daylight for a length of time. They need to be kept in the dark until you are ready to use them, and then given a coat of paint as soon as possible afterwards.

If they get too brittle they may break if the rail is subject to thermal expansion and contraction.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby steve howe » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:39 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:
steve howe wrote:Definitely don't do any painting/weathering until you're sure everything works!

Hi Steve,

Agreed in general. However, if you use any 3D-printed chairs they will harden and get brittle if exposed to daylight for a length of time. They need to be kept in the dark until you are ready to use them, and then given a coat of paint as soon as possible afterwards.

If they get too brittle they may break if the rail is subject to thermal expansion and contraction.

cheers,

Martin.


Interesting, I didn't know that, presumably this may not be so prevalent with injection moulded components?
good to know thanks Martin

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:14 pm

Martin Wynne wrote: Without derailing your topic too far, may I mention that I have made reasonable progress with the 3D Plug Track concept on Templot? To the stage where it is now possible to build plain track lengths using this method.etc.

I have moved the plug track posts over to the original topic as it deserves its own discussion and was starting to confuse this topic. See https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7597
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:53 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:I have moved the plug track posts over to the original topic as it deserves its own discussion and was starting to confuse this topic. See https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7597

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