3D Plug Track - from Templot

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Martin Wynne
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3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:17 am

If anyone would like to experiment with 3D printed bullhead* Plug Track, I have just released version 228a of Templot which includes the first experimental DXF/STL exports. Chairs can be resin-printed. Press fit them into timbers which can be filament-printed, resin-printed, laser-cut, CNC milled. No glue, no solder, no gauges needed. No CAD skills needed, Templot generates the 3D files ready for printing. For any gauge or scale or radius or turnout size. All free.

More info and details at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?f ... -track.34/

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... track.529/

* p.s.<rant on> All rail in this Templot project is vertical. I believe canted rail in 4mm/ft scale is a complete and utter waste of time. No-one can see it, and it causes endless trouble in pointwork construction to get accurate gauging, and wing rails and knuckle bends which sit properly flat. To stand any chance of seeing the rail cant in 4mm/ft scale you need to see the rail ends. On the prototype check rails are vertical, so that rules out most of the visible rail ends. Buffer stops are normally modelled as separate items, so you could build them with canted rail if you insist. For years vertical rail in ply-and-rivet construction was deemed acceptable, and I believe it still is. If you want canted rail, please ignore this topic.<rant off>

Image

cheers,

Martin.
Last edited by Martin Wynne on Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:57 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:21 am

Martin,

Thank you - that looks absolutely superb!

For those who are current Templot users, may I add a small note?

To update, I fired up Templot knowing that it cleverly detects that it is not current and updates to the latest version. In this case, it didn't work :-(

The reason is, as Martin explains on the page he has linked to:

"• If you are using Templot version 227a , the automatic update will fail due to a program glitch. Sorry about that -- please download and install version 228a manually from:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/manual_update.php

There is no need to uninstall your existing copy of Templot."


So user error on my part by not using the specified route and reading the covering note. I just wanted to make sure that no one else fell into this trap and raised an issue with Martin.

I can't wait for our house move to complete, so I can get my 3D printer back out of storage and experiment...

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby Enigma » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:42 am

Seems to be an excellent idea Martin which I would be happy to use - but I don't use Templot and don't have a 3d printer (which I wouldn't have any idea how to use if I had!)

So, the question is, will there be individuals out there who do have the required skills and equipment who would be willing to do the work for people who would like to use the system but, like me, have no 'ability'. And is there any idea of the potential cost in materials an 'average' point etc. might cost?

For those of us of advancing years the potential saving in time (which is becoming an increasingly important factor!) over conventional building methods could be a very attractive proposition!

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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby stephenfreeman » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:11 am

As I understand it, you are best printing the timbers on a Filament printer but for chairs you will get better results with a resin printer.

Currently I only have a filament printer, which I haven't plucked up the courage or found the time to use in anger and am only at the research stage for the other type.

I would expect that it will best be used by a suitably endowed club or group. Commercially,the cost of printed trackwork is unlikely to be much different as component costs are only a relatively small fraction of the total.

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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:37 pm

Enigma wrote:So, the question is, will there be individuals out there who do have the required skills and equipment who would be willing to do the work for people who would like to use the system but, like me, have no 'ability'. And is there any idea of the potential cost in materials an 'average' point etc. might cost?

Hi,

I'm just supplying the software and the files. What folks do with it is up to them. :)

But 3D printing is becoming more widespread in the hobby, and friends often help each other out. I can imagine someone happily doing the timbering bases on their filament printer for others, if someone else will print the chairs on a resin printer for them. Alternatively you might send the Templot file for the timbering base to a laser-cutting service in plywood. The chairs would plug into it just the same as in a filament-printed base. Also, many local clubs have a workshop area where members can use the club equipment, including 3D printers.

The material cost for 3D printing is around £20 per kg for filament, and £30 per kg for resin. So weigh your turnout base (without the rails) and work it out. Filament printers are normally set to use a core infill of between 20% and 50% density, so the weight will vary. I guess a typical turnout might be around £2 for materials. Plus the rail of course.

Failing all that, 3D printers are coming down in price. For Plug Track you don't need the difficult bit -- learning CAD software. Templot does all that for you. Home uncased filament printers are in the £100-£200 range, and resin-printers £200-£300 (very roughly).

Filament printers are good for strong constructional parts, such as the timbering bases, assembly jigs, point-motor brackets, etc., and are very pleasant in use with the usual PLA polymer. Resin printers are better for finely detailed model parts, such as the chairs. But a bit smelly and messy to use.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby Enigma » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:51 pm

Thanks Martin, very useful info. How accurate would a laser cut plywood track base be compared to a 3d printed one? I presume the holes/slots for the chairs need to be pretty close fitting and a good interference fit. Does the resin react to solvent or would some other means of attaching the chairs to the base be needed?

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Re: 3D Plug Track - Templot update released

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:56 pm

Enigma wrote:How accurate would a laser cut plywood track base be compared to a 3d printed one? I presume the holes/slots for the chairs need to be pretty close fitting and a good interference fit. Does the resin react to solvent or would some other means of attaching the chairs to the base be needed?

Hi,

Only the laser-cutting service can answer that. I imagine some initial trial and error would be needed -- there are settings in Templot to adjust the socket size in the files. Once set I imagine it would be consistent and repeatable (for the same batch/grade of plywood).

My guess is that in practice the chairs could be made a firm press fit. After that, if any seemed loose, you could turn the unit over and apply some adhesive or filler into the bottom of the sockets. My preference would be a dab with a hot-glue gun. But others might have other ideas -- for plywood, ordinary pva wood glue would likely be fine. For the PLA filament-printed bases there is no convenient solvent, penetrating cyano superglue is the best bet. But if the sizes are carefully adjusted the chairs should be a good press fit every time. There is an advantage in not glueing them in that if any need replacing for any reason, they can be pushed out from below, or prised out from above.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:34 pm

kevini wrote:to make my first straight/s in P4

Hi Kevin,

Without derailing your topic too far, may I mention that I have made reasonable progress with the 3D Plug Track concept on Templot? To the stage where it is now possible to build plain track lengths using this method. For any scale or gauge. No glue, no rivets, no soldering, no gauges needed. It's intended that the chairs are threaded onto the rail first, before attaching it to the sleepers. The chairs are a firm press-fit in the sleepers -- a tap on the rail top with a toffee hammer seats them down. If necessary they can be sealed in place with sanding sealer applied around the chair base in the same way as a solvent, but for normal use it is not necessary. If a rail is damaged at any time it can be prised out and replaced.

The files from Templot are free for anyone to use, so I imagine laser-cut sleepers with chair sockets will be able to be ordered from the usual suspects:

laser_cut_timbers.jpg

If gauge-widening is needed, it's easy to export an adjusted file and cut some fresh sleepers. You might build up a stock of sleepers having varying amounts of widening.

Likewise, if you don't have your own 3D printer, someone would be able to 3D print the chairs for you:

Image

Image

Image

If you prefer a desktop CNC miller, this is a one-piece track base in MDF. No template needed:

Image

Turnouts are still in the works, I'm working on the special chairs. More info at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... r-cut.229/

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby kevini » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:04 am

I have an Elegoo Saturn printer and was very interested in the 3D printed chairs from templot.
That sounds a great way for me to go at least to try it......sleeper availability?
It would be great if templot could export STL files of integrated sleepers as well but I would feel a bit uncertain about the dimensional stability of the sleepers as resin frequently twists during curing.

For these functional parts an ABS resin would be best but this can be hard to print as it needs higher temps and a printer enclosure usually.
PLA+ resins are almost as good.....I usually use eSUN PLA+ as a standard and you can get a brown colour.
There are also a range of PLA extra strength resins that may be a better bet and would suggest one of these eg. eSUN strong tough but there are many others.

There are many studies on resin longevity and it behaves in a similar way to most plastics becoming more brittle over time (UV exposure is main issue) but as mentioned before a coat of paint should help this. Most consumer resins though have only been on the market for a short time so any tests done are usually accelerated ones and not "actual" 10+ at least years which perhaps most people would want in model railways.

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:23 am

It would be interesting to try the Templot designs with PU resin printed under DLS. That's an aerospace-rated resin allegedly, so it should be well documented as to how it ages.

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Re: Making first simple straight in P4 - Help!

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:55 pm

kevini wrote:It would be great if templot could export STL files of integrated sleepers as well but I would feel a bit uncertain about the dimensional stability of the sleepers as resin frequently twists during curing.

Hi Kevin,

Yes, you can do that now. Even including the rails if you want -- for battery/radio control. This is an STL file straight off Templot, no CAD program or design skills needed:

integrated_chairs.png

PLA+ resins are almost as good.....I usually use eSUN PLA+ as a standard and you can get a brown colour.

That's the one I use for the timbering "bricks". I tried to FDM-print functional chairs on the timbers, but for 4mm scale the results were a dismal failure. It's doable in 7mm, but very slow and ideally you need a dual-extruder printer. Generally I think resin-printing is the only option for 4mm chairs. But the work area is too small on the home resin printers to do much timbering that way -- you would need dozens of timbering bricks.

Having recently acquired a desktop CNC miller, I'm leaning towards one-piece timbering bases in MDF or plywood. At this stage you have to imagine the ballast between the timbers. :) This is EM gauge in MDF:

Image

Much faster than the FDM printer, and the work area is significantly larger, and can be extended with expander kits. The machine cost is comparable with an FDM printer. The only downside is that the process is very noisy. More info:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... utter.276/

MDF doesn't have any actual grain of course, but when stained it has a pleasant wood-like surface texture which at normal viewing distance represents railway timbers very well -- occasional splits and cracks could be added easily with a craft knife. And unlike FDM printing you get sharp corners on the timbers. It needs only a 2-D DXF file from Templot, which makes it much easier to envisage complex bespoke pointwork done this way.

Still lots to think about.

cheers,

Martin.
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3D Plug Track - Templot program update available

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:57 am

Image

At long last I have made a bit of progress with the pointwork chairing -- Templot can now export files to create chairs and timbering for a full switch. Any size of REA bullhead switch, any scale, any gauge, curved onto any radius.

This is a C-switch in EM -- or it will be when I have made the switch blades. Assembled without glue, solder or gauges -- the chairs are a firm press fit in the timbering base:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

There is a program update 236a now on the server with these latest changes.

More about all this:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... -last.546/

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... /post-4951

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... track.529/

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?f ... -track.34/

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Will L » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:02 am

Martin

I really do like the idea of your plug track. If I actulay needed to build track it would be a very strong contender. However I don't so I'm just an onlooker for now, although one could almost be tempted just to try it. One question as somebody who has yet to invest in there own printer. What is a typical print time for a section of track.

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:05 am

Will L wrote:One question as somebody who has yet to invest in there own printer. What is a typical print time for a section of track.

Hi Will,

Thanks.

That's a real piece of string question. For the chairs it's easy. This is my resin printer:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08FR2Y1PT/

which takes about 45 minutes to make a batch of chairs. That's 25 minutes on the printer, and about 20 minutes afterwards on the faff of washing and UV-curing (depending how fussy you are). You can make up to about 200 chairs in a batch. If you buy a spare build plate you can speed things up by printing the next batch while you are washing the previous batch.

For the FDM printing of the timbering base, everything depends on the printer, how thick you want your timbers, which polymer you use, and the settings you use. Higher quality = slower. This is my printer, which is quite old now:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BIBO-Extruder- ... 07N6CKF5P/

It's a slow printer because it has a direct-extruder head. Which means the head is heavier than on tube-feed extruders, so it can't be stopped and started so quickly as it moves about. On the other hand direct extrusion is regarded as producing higher quality prints.

For the timbering bases I use toughened PLA-Plus polymer. I set a layer thickness of 0.12mm and quite slow feed rates at a lowish temperature (180 C) to avoid stringing. Using those settings it took about 3 hours to print the timbering base in the photos above for a total thickness of 1/8" with 40% fill density. That time could be significantly reduced if you omit the "ironing" function which deposits a thin skin on the top surface for a smoother finish. Currently available printers would probably be a lot faster.

But the time taken on FDM printing is largely irrelevant. You just set it going and walk away -- no attention needed. Get on with some modelling or resin printing or whatever. It will switch itself off when it's finished. It will make the bases far faster than you can build and lay the track.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Proton » Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:26 pm

This seems to be a stunning and moderate cost upgrade solution for me. I have a lot of turnouts made to Brook Smith, but it would seem fairly straightforward to do a piecemeal rebuild without too much disruption to the railway. One turnout at a time, drop in replacements made to perfection.
John

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby kelly » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:23 pm

These are looking rather good. Excellent work Martin.

Unfortuately I don't have the space for a 3D printer (or the funds to aquire one really presently).

Perhaps a thread with members who own a printer and are willing to offer limited supply to other members might work? it could become complicated I Guess though.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby 47331xosIM » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:26 pm

Hi Martin,
I am relatively new to actually modelling in P4 - building my first loco kit - so am months away from properly thinking about track work etc, but I have been following this on and off on here and rmWeb as and when I can, I must admit, a lot of the technicalities go over my head, but its a fascinating system and a thank you from me for the time and effort you have invested in this for everyone else!

The last time I looked, you hadn't got into pointwork yet, although a recent post of yours on here says thats now been tackled and achieved. I may be getting way beyond things here (apologies if so!) but if the pointwork is sorted out does that also mean that things like single/double slips, diamond crossings and three-way points can also be created this way now, or do they need other chairs/work that hasn't been looked at yet?

I dont have a 3D printer, but a couple of friends have. My thought therefore is to see if I can put a foot of straight track work together in P4 this way. and I'll see if somebody can 3D print the STL files for the chairs. Martin, you mentioned that your 3D printer could print up to 200 chairs in a batch - do you have any idea what the cost of the resin for that batch would be?

Is there any particular code rail that these chairs need to work with, or can they be used with any EM/P4 rail? I am guessing that it is possibly down to a Templot setting as to the rail parameters? I also note your comment about the switch assembled without gauges, does your system automatically place check rail chairs in the right place as well? Finally (sorry this started as simple well done and one query - then I got thinking!!) is there anything that has to be done differently when designing the track layout in Templot, or any limitations that have to be taken in to account?

I can see some significant advances with this method in both cost (ok you have to factor in the price of a printer if your doing a bigger layout) and construction time, as all the chairs will automatically be in the right place. It also saves me needing to navigate the C&L website which just confuses me every time I look at it - but that is my problem, not the website!

Keep up the good work!

Rich

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:22 am

.
Thanks all for the kind words.

47331xosIM wrote:Hi Martin, I am relatively new to actually modelling in P4 - building my first loco kit - so am months away from properly thinking about track work etc, but I have been following this on and off on here and rmWeb as and when I can, I must admit, a lot of the technicalities go over my head, but its a fascinating system and a thank you from me for the time and effort you have invested in this for everyone else!

The last time I looked, you hadn't got into pointwork yet, although a recent post of yours on here says thats now been tackled and achieved. I may be getting way beyond things here (apologies if so!) but if the pointwork is sorted out does that also mean that things like single/double slips, diamond crossings and three-way points can also be created this way now, or do they need other chairs/work that hasn't been looked at yet?

Hi Rich,

It's good that you are months away from building track -- because you are jumping ahead of me there. :)

So far you can do:

1. Plain track
2. Switches

using REA-pattern bullhead chairs -- what many modellers call 3-bolt, although in fact some have 4, and they are screws, not bolts.

The rest is yet to come. My next job will be to work on the chairs for V-crossings, which will make it possible to do full turnouts, and most tandems. After that chairs for K-crossings so that diamond-crossings can be done. Then the special chairs for slips, etc.

And then do it all again for GWR chairs (2-bolt), and allow users to enter their own custom chair designs.

I want to make it clear that Templot is my hobby -- I am doing this for my own amusement, it's not a commercial product. I'm not making any commitment to any deadline or to make any particular progress, or in fact ever to finish anything. :) But it's encouraging to see some results and dream of working it up to a fully usable system of track building.

Martin, you mentioned that your 3D printer could print up to 200 chairs in a batch - do you have any idea what the cost of the resin for that batch would be?

The last batch I did was for 160 chairs, and the slicer software told me that the total cost would be 33p for the resin. A good proportion of that is wasted in the support structure, you could get the cost down by packing the chairs closer on the support.

Is there any particular code rail that these chairs need to work with, or can they be used with any EM/P4 rail? I am guessing that it is possibly down to a Templot setting as to the rail parameters?

You can enter any desired dimensions for the rail section:

custom_rail_dialog.png

I have included a few program pre-sets for rails in my possession -- the chairs I have made are a good close fit on them. But I don't know how well they match the rails currently available. That's where the scale societies and forums such as this could help by creating a database of rail dimensions folks could use. It's very difficult to measure model rail section without specialised equipment. The dimensions showing above are for prototype BS-95R bullhead rail, at 4mm/ft scale.

I also note your comment about the switch assembled without gauges, does your system automatically place check rail chairs in the right place as well?

Yes, all the chairs plug into sockets which set the gauge, no track gauges are needed. If the gauge is coming out wrong there is a gauge-tweaking adjustment to correct it. But note that most home FDM printers have a resolution of 0.05mm (2 thou). The slicer software will attempt to improve on that, but even so you can't expect to hold exactly 18.83mm. The gauge is likely to vary around 18.81 - 18.85mm even after teaking. That's probably similar to injection-moulded flexi-track. To improve on that would require expensive industrial 3D printers. Which means that to keep within P4 tolerances you might want to tweak the gauge adjustment by +0.02mm to give a range of say 18.83 - 18.87mm.

(You could instead create the original templates at 18.85mm gauge -- any template in Templot can be set to any gauge -- but if you do that the template will become fractionally longer within the track-plan geometry, so it would need to be decided at an early stage.)

Is there anything that has to be done differently when designing the track layout in Templot, or any limitations that have to be taken in to account?

Not for single turnouts. For complex formations some timber-shoving to remove conflicts is essential -- for example extending the long timbers under the middle of a crossover.

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Will L » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:26 am

Martin Wynne wrote:...
I have included a few program pre-sets for rails in my possession -- the chairs I have made are a good close fit on them. But I don't know how well they match the rails currently available. That's where the scale societies and forums such as this could help by creating a database of rail dimensions folks could use. It's very difficult to measure model rail section without specialised equipment. The dimensions showing above are for prototype BS-95R bullhead rail, at 4mm/ft scale. ...

At one time ex editor James was doing work on measuring the various rail profiles available, he certainly had some sections of rail from me for that purpose. I don't know if it lead anywhere.

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby 47331xosIM » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:23 am

Martin Wynne wrote:.
Thanks all for the kind words.

It's good that you are months away from building track -- because you are jumping ahead of me there. :)

So far you can do:

1. Plain track
2. Switches

using REA-pattern bullhead chairs -- what many modellers call 3-bolt, although in fact some have 4, and they are screws, not bolts.

The rest is yet to come. My next job will be to work on the chairs for V-crossings, which will make it possible to do full turnouts, and most tandems. After that chairs for K-crossings so that diamond-crossings can be done. Then the special chairs for slips, etc.

And then do it all again for GWR chairs (2-bolt), and allow users to enter their own custom chair designs.

Martin.


Martin,
Thanks for taking the time to supply such a detailed response. I would encourage you to look at NER chairs next, but I am probably in the minority!!! Lol!

It certainly is innovation, and at 33p for that number of chairs, would make bespoke track work vastly cheaper for people. Keep up the good work!

Rich

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby DougN » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:31 am

WOW is all I can say and thanks Martin for doing all the leg work as a system it sounds wonderful.

I have been away at a convention which included designing in Rhino which was incredibly interesting and something I find intriguing. Sadly back at work I realize the problem with all this is the lack of time to look at 3d printing generally.

However your investigation Martin is wonderful and all power to your arm!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Martin Wynne
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:45 pm

Update:

Image

This is the first test print today of the loose-jaw chairs in 4mm scale:

Image

The rail is dropped into the chair, just like the prototype, and then the loose outer jaw + key is inserted on a rectangular pin to lock the rail in place. The pin flexes as the key passes the rail head and clips under it. The rail cannot be lifted out because it is locked under the opposite jaw.

This is intended for use on the special crossing chairs and check rail chairs in P4. The narrow P4 flangeway makes it difficult to split the entire chair into 2 parts, as I have done for the switch heel chairs. Keying the rail in place like the prototype should make it easier to build complex formations using plug track. For example wing rails with knuckle bends can be inserted closely in between other rails.

The finished chair looks identical to the one-piece plug-in chairs.

More info: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... /post-5178

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:29 am

.
The experimental loose-jaw option isn't yet in the current Templot update, but I have now posted some test STL files if you would like to try printing them -- see:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... /post-5232

(4mm/ft scale. Those P slide chairs are sized for EM/00-SF, so won't fit in P4 sockets.)

cheers,

Martin.
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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Horsetan » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:10 pm

Would this work for Irish 21mm gauge?
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Re: 3D Plug Track - from Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:59 pm

Horsetan wrote:Would this work for Irish 21mm gauge?

Sure. Works for all gauges and scales, whatever you can set in Templot. The loose jaws option is probably not for smaller scales than 4mm.

But at present only for bullhead. Which for Irish prototypes means only GNR(I).

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Now also for L1 bridge chairs and P slide chairs:

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This is 4mm/ft:

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cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.


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