What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

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Julian Roberts
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What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed May 26, 2021 8:10 am

I wonder if anyone can tell what the angle is of the crossings on these photos? I've made a Templot track plan from the OS map where they seem to be 1 in 10, but I'm thinking that might be an unlikely angle for a station loop. Some of you folks here know how to measure the angle from a photo so I'm thinking you may say it's 1 in 8 or something like that.

Real turnouts 2 and 3 photo 1.PNG

Real turnout 2.PNG

Real turnout 3.PNG

Real turnouts 2 and 3 photo 2.PNG


This is for a layout to be built by the 4mm West of Scotland Group. This is the PNG of the track plan I've made on the map. We've numbered the points 1 - 3, left to right. The two turnouts in question are the ones on the right (2 and 3) which as per my plan are C10s.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed May 26, 2021 11:52 am

Given the radius of the curves C10 seems reasonable. Larger crossing angles and/or shorter switches would make the inner radii very tight.
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Keith
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Martin Wynne
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed May 26, 2021 11:54 am

Julian Roberts wrote:I wonder if anyone can tell what the angle is of the crossings on these photos? I've made a Templot track plan from the OS map where they seem to be 1 in 10, but I'm thinking that might be an unlikely angle for a station loop ... ... which as per my plan are C10s.

Hi Julian,

1:10 is entirely reasonable for a curved crossover such as that. Maybe even longer. However, they are very unlikely to be C-10. Much more likely 15ft straight switches. (REA C switches invented 1925, and 50 years to reach somewhere like that.)

p.s. message for you at: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... /post-1530

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed May 26, 2021 3:13 pm

Thats good news Keith and Martin, thank you for such a quick answer.

Also thanks for the link Martin. (I was wondering why my Templot update wasn't working. At least I know now the problem isn't at my end!)

Philip Hall
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Philip Hall » Thu May 27, 2021 11:43 am

Not really your question, Julian, but I am minded to observe the amount of superelevation on the platform road, quite pronounced. It's always been a mystery to me why a line which sees quite low speeds should have such a degree of cant. Clapham Junction is the same, I had to climb uphill to get out of a carriage on the slow platforms, and every train stopped. And then on other main lines there's hardly any cant at all.

I imagine it's to do with curvature and there must be rules about these things. Did different railways have different ideas?

Philip

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Julian Roberts
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu May 27, 2021 8:11 pm

Yes Phil, there has been discussion amongst the Group about the cant as you can imagine. With a viewing perspective as per the image I put up earlier I wonder whether cant will be visible unless exaggerated even further....though that could give problems....I just wonder if it's worth it, no doubt that can be a topic of discussion at track laying stage.

The radius is 71 inches which merits changing the Templot default sleepering from 25 to 26 per panel, and theoretically puts it in the half an inch gauge widening category... :geek:

Yes I've often got on trains at Clapham Junction too.

bécasse
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby bécasse » Thu May 27, 2021 9:21 pm

The prototype radius was fairly tight (450 feet or a bit under 7 chains) for what was clearly a passenger line but I strongly suspect that much of the apparent superelevation is just that, apparent rather than real. The grain wagon standing in the platform road in the view the other way appears to be standing pretty much level and a quick calculation suggests that, for a design speed of 20 km/h, the equilibrium superelevation is no more than 40 mm (or 0,5 mm in 4 mm scale and potentially more trouble than it is worth).

It is perhaps noteworthy that the line isn't checkrailed.
Last edited by bécasse on Thu May 27, 2021 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davebradwell
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby davebradwell » Fri May 28, 2021 8:23 am

The trouble with not including the elevation, even small amounts, is that you can get uncomfortable feeling that the train is leaning outwards - it's as if the eye expects a train to lean into a curve. It's no great hassle to do, either. I did once go to town and flycut some Exacto bases to a wedge profile leaving the 1/16" thickness on the outside and machining down to 1/32" at the inner edges of the sleepers. Len Newman wasn't impressed when I suggested them as a product! This is about the amount quoted earlier. The usual strip of thin card should do the job very nicely, no need to exaggerate.

You'll be putting the correct chairs on the points and attempting to include every bolt - how can you not include something that will be visible from the other side of the room?

DaveB

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Will L
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Will L » Fri May 28, 2021 9:42 am

Just remember that if you want to include super elevation, the changes in level of the rail top that implies is what vehicle suspension in P4 is all about. You may get short rigid 4 wheeled vehicles round it reliably, but for anything with P4 flanges and a longer wheelbase than that, you will really needs some sort of working suspension.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri May 28, 2021 10:46 am

Haha Dave I'm not making this layout, I've got Kyle to do! Yes the superelevation is easy to do like that I'm sure. Most of the Group members' stock has suspension of one sort or another Will. To the extent that it is, I wonder if the cant is there to compensate for the absence of a checkrail? - the passenger train service terminated here, and discontinued after about 1905 in any case!

bécasse
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby bécasse » Fri May 28, 2021 1:26 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:To the extent that it is, I wonder if the cant is there to compensate for the absence of a checkrail? - the passenger train service terminated here, and discontinued after about 1905 in any case!


Although the regular passenger train service ceased in 1903, excursion trains, in connection with sailings to and from the Isle of Man, continued until the mid-1930s.

In respect of the apparent cant, there is a colour photograph on Pinterest of a freight train in the station well into BR days which strongly suggests that there was little or no cant.

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Stuartp
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Stuartp » Fri May 28, 2021 8:13 pm

Ooh Garlieston :-) (sits up and takes notice). No idea about the crossing, sorry, other than to mention for thse not familiar with the line that the Wigtownshire Railway seems to have regarded rules, standards and even normal practice as things which largely happened to other people. Wasn't the Garlieston branch officially a horse tramway for many years despite being steam worked from day 1 ?

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Julian Roberts
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Re: What is the angle of these crossings at Garlieston?

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat May 29, 2021 10:19 am

Fascinated to hear any more info like that!


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