New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Martin Wynne
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New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:52 pm

40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Enigma
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Enigma » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:58 pm

I've already raised the question of a P4 version with the manufacturer who says he may well consider it once he has the OO and EM versions well under way. None of the 4mm parts appear as yet on his website - or at least they hadn't 5 minutes ago!

nigelcliffe
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby nigelcliffe » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:35 pm

Enigma wrote:I've already raised the question of a P4 version with the manufacturer who says he may well consider it once he has the OO and EM versions well under way. None of the 4mm parts appear as yet on his website - or at least they hadn't 5 minutes ago!


Give Wayne a break - he said Jan/Feb for the first of the 4mm stuff.


- Nigel

Enigma
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Enigma » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:52 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:
Enigma wrote:I've already raised the question of a P4 version with the manufacturer who says he may well consider it once he has the OO and EM versions well under way. None of the 4mm parts appear as yet on his website - or at least they hadn't 5 minutes ago!


Give Wayne a break - he said Jan/Feb for the first of the 4mm stuff.


- Nigel


I know. It was a very pleasant exchange between us - and I only mentioned the website in case anyone else was tempted to have a look and found no mention of it.

David Catton
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby David Catton » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:49 pm

It seems from RMWeb that OO and EM gauge modellers are viewing this announcement with great pleasure. I would urge the committee to pursue the possibility of P4 versions of these products with vigour. If it's sauce for the "narrow-minded" 4mm = 1 ft geese, it must surely be sauce for we "broad-minded" ganders. It could even be worth an investment of our subscribed funds, couldn't it?

Clearly, the initial contact suggests the supplier wishes to recoup his investment by addressing what he perceives as the larger markets of OO and EM before contemplating P4 standard products but perhaps a judicious investment might assist his assessment of the potential market for a really accurate product?

The Society has its origins in supporting the creation of alternative sources of products relevant to P4 (and S4) modelling. I urge the committee to consider loosening the purse-strings and ensuring that a range of accurate (and affordable) pointwork becomes an early reality.

David C

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Martin Wynne
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:58 pm

David Catton wrote:I would urge the committee to pursue the possibility of P4 versions of these products with vigour.

Hi David,

Wayne has already answered this, and said that he doesn't believe his manufacturing process can hold the required P4 tolerances. He also knows that if it doesn't, and something is 0.05mm out, he will never hear the end of it from the P4 purists. :)

For example, he is using SMP rail, which is 0.12mm under scale width. Also the rail is vertical (very sensible), not 1:20 canted.

The price announced today has come as a pleasant surprise:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=4222677

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

DougN
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby DougN » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:22 am

Martin, I would hope cooler heads pro vale. I think his processes and prototype (the model itself) appear to be well thought through (I have read the thread on RMweb and I am very impressed). I for one would encourage his development. I do not know the answer to the next question but no doubt others know is the +/-0.05 within the tollerance for P4 acceptable. Yes the purists will never be happy but the rest of us might be!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Philip Hall
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:43 am

Tolerances are a can of worms as I guess this manufacturer knows well. However, our track gauge is supposed to be 18.83mm, but I have lengths of Exactoscale FastTrack that vary a little from this, around the 18.9 mm mark. I have various makes of rail which makes a minute difference to the fit of rail in the bases, but it makes not the slightest difference to running as everyone knows - it’s under gauge track that is the nightmare.

I would be a little more concerned about the SMP rail, but there were other rail sections mentioned in the earlier posts. And I too would not be worried by the lack of baseplate angle - it’s just not obvious and has been the cause of some angst as has been mentioned on here.

Best of luck to him, but I hope he’s savvy enough to realise our side of the market is pretty small, much as we might like to think otherwise!

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:15 am

Philip Hall wrote:I would be a little more concerned about the SMP rail, but there were other rail sections mentioned in the earlier posts.

Hi Philip,

There you go immediately. If Wayne makes a track base for SMP rail, and you thread it with C&L rail, it will be over 0.1mm under gauge straight off. Before considering whether the P4 flangeway can be held using lost-wax castings from waxes injected into silicone moulds.

I'm not Wayne, but I have been in his position making pointwork kits and components for 00, EM and P4, so I have some idea of his situation. It was a long time ago (1980s) -- a lot has changed, but some things haven't.

For example, the effort needed is skewed towards P4 with a lot more messing about needed than for say EM. But the market is skewed the other way. The typical EM order was for a dozen turnout kits for a large layout and come back for more. The typical P4 order was for 2 turnout kits for a shunting plank, and never heard from again. I would think that the time and trouble needed to do P4 isn't worth the candle, when you have a vastly greater market wanting EM (so great that the EMGS have had Peco make read-to-lay turnouts for them), and now a rapidly increasing interest in better trackwork and hand building from 00 modellers too.

P4 modellers have, or had, the excellent P4 Track Co turnout kits from Exactoscale -- all injection moulded and precision-machined canted steel rail. If the society was looking to increase the availability of P4 pointwork kits, getting that range re-established and extended would make more sense than trying to divert Wayne from what will be a busy time satisfying demand in 00 and EM for a lower-spec product.

And then there is EM-SF, which some are taking an interest in, and Exactoscale already produce 0.8mm check rail chairs for. Wayne might be interested in looking at that -- bearing in mind the tolerances are the same as for EM, it uses the same wheels/back-to-back as standard EM, and EM-SF pointwork can be mixed with standard EM on the same layout (provided RTR wheels are not being used). If there was a range of pointwork available for EM-SF, a sizeable market of former P4 and existing EM modellers might build up for it, and where else can they get EM-SF...? :)
It's listed in Templot and there are some discussion topics on Templot Club with several members showing interest. At least one layout is being built.

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Philip Hall
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:02 pm

I got the impression that the EM turnouts might be available with C&L rail, so I guessed the same would happen with P4. I agree that the market for P4 is far smaller and the manufacturer might think the extra effort not being worth it. So much trackwork has to ‘flow’ and making it up from preset turnouts can often not look right.

However, if it shows people how good P4 can be and encourages them to have a go, very good. I wish him well.

Philip

David Catton
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby David Catton » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:25 pm

While acknowledging Martin's points about tolerances, perhaps asking members if they would be interested in buying products from this source might be worth while? It seems to have worked in respect of a form tool for P4 wheels. Martin may be correct in his assumption that many P4 modellers would only buy 2 turnouts but perhaps availability, simplicity and price might stimulate the purchase of greater numbers?

If so, my suggestion was for a Society investment, i.e the Society takes the risk by underwriting some or all the cost of developing the kits, rather than expecting the developer to bear the cost when his money clearly favours OO and EM products.

Keep safe!

David C

davebradwell
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby davebradwell » Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:21 pm

Careful here! Martin also warned about meeting P4 tolerances with cast chairs. I think we might wait for evidence that a P4 version of the product is possible. Poor bloke hasn't even got started yet.

Is the Exctoscale product definitely done for? This is tried and tested - "oven ready" I think is the popular expression and there's been considerable investment in accurate tooling. It seems unlikely that we can suppoort 2 suppliers.

DaveB

DougN
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby DougN » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:38 am

I have to agree with DaveB. The P4 fast track point work was very nice. I have one I built a number of years ago. I enjoyed the 3 hours or so of putting it together. At the time I couldn't afford to purchase any more (you know small kids, mortgage .....etc). It would be great if the kits could become available again. In the mean time though the first thing I would say to most people heading down the P4 track building, as these kits are not available, to start by purchasing the V blocks and the blade jigs from the stores. I had an impulse purchase of the V jig, I am so impressed with the speed at which the v's could be filed and assembled. On my "santa list" is the blade jig. Yes in the Melbourne group there is a couple that people are happy to lend etc. but it is one of those things to have sitting in the tool draw at any time. Yes I am a bit sad that I sat down and make a V at times just for something to do!

:thumb
Seasons greetings to all
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Terry Bendall
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:03 am

It might be worth while remembering that kits for building turnouts to P4 standards are still available from C&L (see the advertisement on page 3 of Scalefour News 220) and that Exactoscale turnout kits are available from the Society stores. Given the likely demand, I don't think there is any need for another manufacturer to go down this route or for the Society to get involved in the development.

Turnout kits are very useful and I have built and used 9 in total of the Exactoscale ones on two different layouts and I have several unused ones on the shelf for future projects but they are not so helpful if you wish to build something other than standard formations. We have to accept that if you want to use kits you have to pay for them and for some people that could be a limiting factor. Building turnouts using rivetted sleepers is much cheaper - probably no more than £2.00 for the bits but more of course if you want cosmetic or functional chairs.

Anyone who wants to work to P4 standards has to accept that building track and turnouts needs more time and the skills to do it but you will never learn the skills until you try. If you want to work to P4 standards you have to accept that things will be more time consuming and in some respects more expensive than working in OO or EM and there is no way of avoiding that.

Terry Bendall

Tony Wilkins
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:24 am

I always reckon on £4 - £5 for the basic components for a typical Ply and Rivet Turnout these days. Still considerably cheaper than any available kit.
So if you muck it up first off, you haven't really lost much and hopefully gained experience in the process.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:59 am

Tony,
When did you last buy timbers and rivets? I costed a ply and rivet turnout at £5 (excluding cosmetic chairs) about 10 years ago and rail, timbers and rivets have gone up in price substantially since then. :)
Regards
Keith
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Tony,
When did you last buy timbers and rivets? I costed a ply and rivet turnout at £5 (excluding cosmetic chairs) about 10 years ago and rail, timbers and rivets have gone up in price substantially since then. :)

Hi Keith.
You could well have a point as it was at least 5 years ago. Rivets have not increased in price since then, but rail and the timbers most certainly have.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: New range of chaired bullhead turnout kits in 00 and EM

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:10 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I would be a little more concerned about the SMP rail

Hi Philip,

Wayne has just posted that he will now be using EMGS rail in the EM kits, and has adjusted the CAD to fit:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=4229556

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...


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