Type of track ballast

[Sapper]

I am planning to build a small layout based on LNWR/MR practice, the location being in the Peak District and would like to know if anyone can tell me the type of ballast used. I assume for a minor line local materials would be used and in this location presumably limestone which would be a light creamy colour rapidly going darker. I seem to remember on a visit to the remains of the Grassington branch in Yorkshire the ballast on the line running up to the quarry appeared to be very light in colour and not the normal pinkish granite colour you see these days.

Any info would be appreciated.


Sapper

[Mark Tatlow]

Firstly, what era are you talking about?

Ballest up to the early years of last century was probably totally ash, after whchc stone became more prevelant but there was probably a lot of local mixing of other granular material (blast furnace slag for example).

Then it depends on what stone was used, as obviously it depends the colour of the raw material. Stone is now carried quite long distances (evidenced by the Meldon stone being used in a lot of the country) but until the last 20 - 30 years this was not the case and there would have been a much higher prevelance of local stone. Stone comes in a wide variety of colours and is not the normal honey grey that many people think. If you are in the Peak district, stone from the white peak area is a relatively light grey, but with a tinge of yellowy sand. It is a darker and greener colour in the dark peak area.

After this, you need to consider what age/condition the ballest is in. I was looking at this when it came to colouring my ballest and on the modern railway it comes in almost white (as you have seen) through to a deep dark brown (from brake dust. If I remember correctly, in the 1980's before the use of selfcontained toilets, the "other discharge" made this darker colour more common.

If you go back to steam days, the ash and other dirt that they put off definately made the colour less dark brown and more browny black to all out black. When it got to sheds, the colour is essentially black or dark charcoaly grey when it is dry (aghh, that reminds me, ballest is rarely totally dry and that will change the colour).

[Sapper]

Hi Mark
Thanks for your response. My period for modelling would be pre WW1, probably around 1895 - 1905 as by most accounts the engines were kept clean in those days! Having had a look in the Cromford & High Peak Railway there are a couple of photos taken in Victorian times which shows in one a light coloured ballast and in the other what appears to be a fine mixture of aggregate spread over the tops of the sleepers which I believe was quite common in those days.

Regards


Sapper

[grovenor-2685]

Firstly, what era are you talking about?

Ballast up to the early years of last century was probably totally ash,

Not really, most 'Main lines' would have had stone ballast originally, the prevalence of Ash ballast came later and especially for sidings, branch lines, widenings etc. when the railways were established and had lots of ash to dispose of, hence for many years it was cheap fill, there was a saving in not having to buy material and another in not having to pay to get rid of it.
Regards
Keith

[Alan Turner]

If you are talking MR turn of the 20th centuary, Peak Distrit then it was limestone.

Take a look at the many pictures reproduced in books such as "Through Limestone hills", "Midland Through the Peak", "the Midland Railway - a pictorial history", "Main Lines in the Peak District" and "Branch Lines in the Peak District".

Alan

[Sapper]

To those who have answered my query many thanks. It looks as though a light coloured 'limestone' ballast would besuitable for this period and location.

Sapper

[Hardwicke]

I've looked at the lines in the area and only the running lines seem to have stone ballast for the period modelled. Other lines are ash. The Wirksworth branch seems to be all ash at the terminus but later used stone. Just to complicate matters as it were...

[martin goodall]

I can't comment on prototype ballast (other than to say that on their main lines the GWR used limestone ballast quarried in the Mendips. On branch lines, it could be a bit more 'mixed', and at branch termini and in sidings the GWR clearly used a fair amount of ash, as (it seems) did most other companies).

Turning to model ballast, if you want your track to transmit noise really effectively, so that the grinding of gears in your locos can be heard half a mile away, be sure to souse everything generously with PVA. Sticking the track to cork underlay with PVA and then adding stone chips, also held in place with a generous dollop of PVA, will ensure that the whole ensemble will set as hard as concrete and will effectively neutralise any limited sound insulation qualities which the cork underlay might have had. This is the perfect recipe for ensuring maximum transmission and amplification of all the grinding and graunching noises our locos and rolling stock make, which so adds to the 'toy train' atmospehere we are seeking to create.

If, on the other hand, you want your trains to run quietly, then stone-based ballast is best avoided in favour of alternatives such as ground cork, ground almond shells, etc. (preferably as sold for use in N gauge, unless you prefer your ballast to look like boulders from the Rockies). Use an alternative adhesive, e.g. latex-based (like Copydex). I stick my track down first with a fairly sparing application of Evostik impact adhesive under the ends of the sleepers. I can't claim that my track is silent, but it is certainly less noisy than track stuck down with PVA and ballasted with PVA-soaked granite chippings.

Quite by accident, I found that balsa sheet makes the quietest underlay, although this is obviously a rather expensive material to use for this puropose. Most of my layout is laid on 'plastizote' (which doesn't seem to be any quieter than cork).

[Bilton Junction]

"most 'Main lines' would have had stone ballast originally, the prevalence of Ash ballast came later"
I think that it may have depended on where the main line was and the industries that it served. In many areas the availability of "ash" preceded the railway. The "fastest train in the British Empire" circa 1906 was timed at an average speed of over 60 mph from Newcastle to York. The North Eastern Railway used ash ballast from Doncaster to Berwick and I am fairly sure that the GNR and NBR also used "ash" ballast, so that is probably the entire East Coast Main Line from London to Aberdeen. The NER did not introduce stone ballast until shortly before the First World War. I suspect ash ballast is a misnomer anyway because it must always have been a mixture of cinders, pit waste and foundry slack not that fine white stuff that comes from under a domestic fire or blew up a locomotive chimney and would also blow away in a light breeze.
Carl

[johnWM]

I remember reading somewhere that during the period around 1900 some railways used stone ballast but then topped it up with sand to completely cover the sleepers in station areas. I remember in the same article it said that the practice was stopped when it was realised that sleepers rotted more quickly when treated like this. I read the article about 20 years ago, but I think it was about one of the GWRs early constituants.

[grovenor-2685]

I suspect ash ballast is a misnomer anyway because it must always have been a mixture of cinders, pit waste and foundry slack not that fine white stuff that comes from under a domestic fire or blew up a locomotive chimney and would also blow away in a light breeze.

Of course, what blew up a loco chimney was not collected, what was collected was that which had to be removed from the firegrate and smokebox at the sheds, shovelled from ashpits into wagons and disposed of somehow, what better than to use it building more railway.
Keith

[Bilton Junction]

Of course, what blew up a loco chimney was not collected, what was collected was that which had to be removed from the firegrate and smokebox at the sheds, shoveled from ashpits into wagons and disposed of somehow, what better than to use it building more railway.

Yes but that wouldn't go very far in first place. A full days running and one engine would have barely provided enough to lay the next sleeper! Besides ash is white or pinkish-grey and very fine, admittedly the cinders were dark blue/black. "Ash" ballast is very dark. It was still fairly common in sidings and mineral lines in the 1960's. Certainly the ballast contained ash, which holds water and caused the sleepers to rot faster. That is why the NER started to replace it at late stage, when timber became more scarce, with crushed stone, which was comparatively expensive ie they had to buy it rather than removing it for free. It wasn't just used by railways, it was a constant source of material to lay for road vehicles off the highway. I still carry a small memento of Northumberland in my right knee from a childhood accident. The shot blasters down the pit had similar tattoos on their faces. Forty years ago there were still vast pitheaps all over Northumberland and in many other counties as well. They were mostly comprised of shale and coal slack that was then unusable. They used to glow in the dark like volcanoes and the pungent farty smell was everywhere; the coal slack was ultimately converted into fine dark grey cinders. The mines couldn't get rid of the stuff, hence the heaps. There were many embankments in the North-East, including those built latterly to replace timber trestle bridges over valleys that were made entirely of mine waste. Latterly in Northumberland and Durham there were wire cableways to tip the waste into the sea. If you have watched "Get Carter" you will see an example of the appliance and the black sea water around it. My garden in Darlington drains beautifully and the house is perfectly dry and stabilised from clay shrinkage because it is raised on a huge heap of foundry glass as hard as whinstone. It had its uses. The kerbstones around here are made of very hard blue bricks known as scoria ("waste" to put it politely!) that were made from the residue of steel conversion. They were produced in vast quantity and exported all over the World including Australia and Nigeria. Smokebox ash and firebox cinders certainly augmented the supply of industrial waste but it must have added a comparatively small volume to it.
Carl

[andrew jukes]

A couple of weeks ago, Martin said:

If, on the other hand, you want your trains to run quietly, then stone-based ballast is best avoided in favour of alternatives such as ground cork, ground almond shells, etc. (preferably as sold for use in N gauge, unless you prefer your ballast to look like boulders from the Rockies).

Any suggestions on a good source of these alternatives? I was about to use granite but have always had reservations about it.

Andrew Jukes

[Russ Elliott]

Any suggestions on a good source of these alternatives? I was about to use granite but have always had reservations about it.

Granulated cork is ok if it can be got in the right size, which is maybe doubtful these days. It is also perhaps not the best starting colour, so will need some good painting.

Woodlands Scenics (fine grade, but the bags do vary in consistency a little, which can be a good thing) is the best but most expensive, and comes in several different colours. The colours can be mixed with good effect. On thin ply track, a packet goes a long way. A lot more would be needed on 1.6mm timbers, but I can't imagine cost is going to an issue with you, Andrew.

(I've only tried ballasting insitu thick-timber track once, and it is boring and painstaking to make look good and level.)

Real granite is awful in just about every respect you can imagine.

[Weskie]

Any suggestions on a good source of these alternatives? I was about to use granite but have always had reservations about it.

Have you looked at Greenscene? Their ballast says it is made from granulated fruit stones.
The picture shows some that say is for 2mm

ballast.jpg

[Re6/6]

I use 'chinchilla dust' from pet shops. I got the tip at an exhibition from a well known P4 layout. Can't remember which one though! I've used it successfully ever since. It works well with the usual PVA/Copydex method. Not quite so with the 'new' Johnsons Klear method. I found that it dried with a slightly cracked finish, but then it was my first attempt and probably needs more experimentation. It is very fine and scales down to about 20-30mm stones. It appears to be a mineral based substance.

006.JPG

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[Mark Tatlow]

The use of copydex does not come with my recommendation.............

When it is dry, it creates a latex type skin. Cutting and particularly drilling into this is a real problem. The skin gets caught around the drill bit and before long you have pulled up huge chunks of glue, ballest and what not!

Regarding material for the ballest, I used Woodland scenics ground foam. I used the "fine" material which is really a powder more than ground chunks of foam and it comes in a grey or black (and various greens!). What does not work so well though is retrospectively laying the ballest - you need to spread the glue on the trackbed prior to laying the track and then do the two together. This is because the material is so light and absorbant, it will suck the glue up and then set; so if you pour it deep, you get it deep!

IMG_1324 compress.JPG

[Bilton Junction]

I have used C&L ballast which is apparently made from ground fruit stones. It seems quite good and stuck down well with PVA. It isn't badly priced and when recycled with a vacuum cleaner it goes a long way. The 4mm size used alone looks far too big The main disadvantage is that the colour variation between batches is beyond what might be expected so I made up a mix. Having open fires, I was intending to use real ash/cinders/coal for yards and slow lines but it struck me that we go to a lot of trouble to try to remove acid flux residues and the coal we get now often has a very high sulphur content, so I was concerned about corrosion. I have used coffee grounds recently, they appear to be the correct size for cinders and can be dried out and dyed easily with Dylon dies, the sort that come in tins for dyeing fabrics. The black seems to be colour fast and the cost is minimal. I also tried bleaching them with Domestos to see if i could come up with greys for stone ballast but that didn't work, but I was going to have a go with wood bleach instead.
Carl

[andrew jukes]

Thanks for the suggestions on a good source of non-granite ballast.

I went ahead and ordered a selection of Woodland Scenics and Green Scene (light and dark grey and cinders in 2mm + 4mm, or fine and medium). I have decided to use mainly GS 411, Green Scene 2mm dark grey. The size and general texture feel just right and the colour seems pretty good 'as is'.

I am following my previous practice (using behind the scenes FastTrack) of sticking the track down with Evostick flooring adhesive, which doesn't set as hard as PVA and makes a good bond with plastic sleepers. I was hoping to lay the track and ballast it in one go and so far it's working out well. For some tastes or periods, the ballast is a little low, but I think for a 1930s main line it looks alright. What I have been doing when laying a panel (often a double - or 120ft - panel) is to put on a reasonably generous spread of the adhesive, feed the droppers of the assembled panel through their holes and feed the fishplates onto adjacent rail ends, then press and wiggle the panel into the adhesive. Then check the rail gaps and get the panel aligned exactly. Then sprinkle on a very generous amount of ballast, generous enough so that it can be dry brushed with a small paint brush to maximise the amount that sticks. (It is amazing how large the holes in a jam jar lid have to be to give enough flow for quick sprinkling. I have ended up with 14 x 2.2mmØ).

I leave the panel weighted down for at least 6 hours, then use the small brush again to collect together most of the surplus ballast. Once that's out of the way, I vacuum the track. The picture shows the end result, where the ECML emerges from Welwyn South tunnel. In the (out of focus) background, the track in tunnel is briefly grey FastTrack and then the old brown Fast Track.

Andrew Jukes

[Philbax]

Hi Andrew
I'm just starting to think about track laying. Your example looks perfect to me.
When using copydex is this diluted with water and what sort of proportion/mix was used.
Also what is the easiest way of applying it before locating the track, I did a quick try and found that it was either very thin (over mixed with water) or difficult to get an even coverage when used neat.

Any advice comment welcome
philbax

[craig_whilding]

We used a mix of two Greenscenes ballast colours on the rebuilt Slattocks too. The finished sections of track were ballasted when laid, the whole lot going onto neat PVA. There are gaps in it where we have droppers and also where the balsa wasn't sealed so well. PVA was just applied with a piece of folded over card to smooth it out over an area.

The pointwork is 1/2 height ply but we have plastic plaintrack on the layout too which may need some extra ballast adding at some sections due to the extra height.

craig-slattocks_crossings_small.jpg

Oh another tip is to put some thin cotton over the end of the vacuum to hoover up the excess ballast and then drop it back into the pot..

[nberrington]

Hi Andrew

What did you do with the connectors between the fast track sleepers? Did you cut them out before moving the panel in situ?

Regards
Neil

[Terry Bendall]

Being old fashioned we use granite ballast made for 2mm scale fixed with dilute PVA with a drop of washing up liquid in the glue. The ballast is only put down after all the track has been laid, wired up and tested. It is put down dry and then glue applied with a dropper. It is time consuming but if you want a good job, time is needed. Yes the layout can be noisy, but if it is one that goes to exhibitions the noise is not noticed. On Brighton Road the track is laid on 10mm thick camping mat which seems to work well and ballasted with granite held with PVA.

One of the things that concerns me is the colour of ballast. On a lot of layouts the colour is much too even and whist the stone used my be clean in places, where the locos stand - steam or diesel, the ballast will be darker with oil stains. We paint the sides of the rails with a mix of colours to give a rust effect and deliberately vary the colours as we go along. Then a spray with Railmatch sleeper grime all over to colour the ballast and tone down the sides of the rails. After that a spray with thinnned down matt black where the loco stands - in platforms, at signals, etc.

Those who model the contemporary scene can of course go out and take pictures of the track, which Is what we did, and then colour the track to match. Modelling the steam powered railway will be different although the preserved lines might be helpful. But would the ballast colour be any different to what we see today?

Terry Bendall

[martin goodall]

Modelling the steam powered railway will be different although the preserved lines might be helpful. But would the ballast colour be any different to what we see today?

Terry Bendall

I took some useful reference shots on the Severn Valley Railway some years ago, which I use for colour matching ballast, sleepers, etc. (which are MUCH lighter than most modellers seem to imagine). The only possible anachronism I detected was some dirty black staining in the four-foot where diesels had been run. This was generally absent from sidings, and probably gives a better colour match for the steam era, but some allowance might also need to be made for soot and coal dust, etc. especially where steam locos stood for any length of time. However, this should not be overdone.

[steves17]

On the subject of ash ballasting. I'm modelling around 1920-30 West of Furness (Sodor). I've got Normon Solomon's DVD on track building - he demonstrates using ash at the sides then stone ballasting on top. Does anyone know if this was prototypical for the area. I know different companies had different policies but i get the impression this practice is more common than not. Also would a main line siding- say a single ended passing loop be all ash or was this only really common on branch/mineral lines and yards?
Every time I try searches online it is either modelling tips on how to do it or still pics of real examples but with no info. I was hoping my Ian Rice book on track building would cover it but he skims over quite a lot of the percifics
Ta.