Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
Terry Bendall
Forum Team
Posts: 2416
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:42 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Question now is whether to spray the sleeper colour and hand paint the rails and fixings or the other way round (or neither).


For copper clad sleepers I lay the track wire it up and test it, then paint the sleeprs by hand since there is a tendency for the paint to chip off easily. I have heard of some people who colour the sleepers with a blackening solution first to avpid the peroblem of chipped paint. The ballast is then laid and I then spray everything with track colour - usually Railmatch sleeper grime. I then paint the sides of the rails and the rail fixingsby hand with a mix rust colours. After all that I then spray a thin coat of sleeper grime to tone down the rust colour. The picture below, part of Elcot Road, shows the end result.

The first three tracks are built on copper clad sleepers and the surface if the forground is crushed ash from a loco.

Terry Bendall
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:32 pm

I've sprayed the turnouts camouflage brown so the sleepers look like newly creosoted ones to me. I like your track colour above, Terry, thanks for posting that advice. Meanwhile Kyle is beginning to take shape
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Julian Roberts on Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh - trap point detail question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:40 pm

Last lap - the trap point. Some photos show the bend here checkrailed its entire length, except at the point, which is a single blade.
httpswww.ambaile.org.ukdetailen276381EN27638-the-main-railway-line-entering-kyle.htm.png

Later the trap point is a double blade, and there is no checkrail.
Screenshot_20210926-150548_Chrome.jpg

I am building the later type trap point but retaining the checkrail, really because it's a feature so rarely modelled.

This is a totally nerdy chairing question. The switch is a B and therefore, I understand, the rail is fixed for the last two sleepers before the joint. So I'm recommencing the checkrail there, two sleepers before the joint. Would this be practical in reality, from the chairing aspect? Here is the model with the adjacent switch rail just loosely in position.
20221028_204620.jpg

20221028_204708.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:04 pm

My concern (if not obsession) in all this turnout making has been to avoid gauge narrowing at the switch.  The blades not only have to be the right thickness but must lie against the stockrail properly right along the length of the planing from tip to stockgauge.

By the time I'm making the last turnout for Kyle I've realised that there is no need for two stretcher bars on the model, certainly with this short A blade.  The prototype makes do with one here as far as I can see in the pictures, and on the other (B) switches in the yard. It's a question of subtle bending of the switch rail prior to the blades, after it is filed satisfactorily, so that they want naturally to lie against the stockrail for the planing length.  It's easier to do this with the diverging blade.

20221028_105632.jpg

20221028_110116.jpg

20221028_204620.jpg

 
I couldn't manage that with the main route one but bent it so that it wanted to lie against the stockrail at the stockgauge end, and in this position the tip was about a quarter of a mm distant.  Thus with the action of the mechanism pushing the tip right home the blade would certainly be fully abutting for all the planing length.

Of course it's difficult to be sure it's right till it's soldered in place. One can only make a best guess, trying it in the it place it will be, but that is finally determined by tiny alignment adjustments and using the gauges. 

One thing I wanted to ensure was that the blade was soldered at the same vertical angle as the stockrail so that it was right home at both top and bottom.  I expect the stockrails are meant to be vertical through the switch. I'd be happy if the rails of the whole thing were vertical but I still haven't mastered getting them quite right and they both slope inwards about 20 deg - correct for plain line I believe.  So I made sure I held the blade properly against the stock rail when making that crucial first solder join of blade rail to chair, 9 sleepers along from the tip in this case. That first fixing has to be right. It doesn't matter if the blade is also slightly sloping inwards - at least I can't see why not.



The  one other thing about this section of track is the gauge widening. Seeing the checkrail on the photos I automatically thought 'this must be a sharp curve and must need the maximum widening'. I was forgetting that what is a sharp curve on the real thing is pretty mild on the model, and I forgot to check what Templot gave as the radius before commencing.  After the outside running rail I fixed down the checkrail with the checkgauge tool. Then I got the 0.2 widened gauge to fix down the inner running rail, including the turnout and stockgauge. Only after it was all done, and complete with inner half chairs, I thought what a pity it was that the gap was in theory 0.88, effectively 0.9mm, rather undoing the narrow flangeways appearance of P4, relative to other standards. 

GAUGE WIDENING TABLE.PNG


I checked the radius. It's 1807mm which on the chart my son made a few years ago puts it into the category of needing the full 0.1 widening (though by some folks reckoning this means it needs 0.2). I got out my rarely used 40w iron and the Society triangular gauge and adjusted the whole inner running rail, except the short switch section where the turnout was already made. (I find once the Masokits soldered track is fully made it is not easily adjusted except by an iron with more clout than my usual 25w.)

With this done I found the 0.1 wide gauge fitted perfectly. So now the gap must be effectively 0.8 while in S4 it would be (by my reckoning) 0.7, the checkrail being 0.1 further from the outer rail.

The turnout was tested with the largest wheel loco I have - elsewhere I've found it's bigger wheels that find any gap between blade and stockrail

20221112_215711 (1).jpg


20221113_125615 (1).jpg

20221122_093343 (1).jpg



I've used EMGS fishplates which I will probably standardize on for joining plain track sections. In practice on the club layout I've found the Masokits ones tend to disintregrate unless totally soldered up.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Philip Hall
Posts: 1943
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:51 am

For fishplates I use the Peco bullhead ones, which are the correct length, have some nicely impressed boltheads and have the further advantage of holding the web of the rail as well as the foot, so keeping it all in alignment. Holding the web though has a disadvantage if the rail sections vary, which they do sometimes, so some fettling is needed.

Philip

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:00 am

Here are the EMGS fishplates. Very simple to use. Just fold the pair around the rail, squeeze into the web with parallel pliers, and solder. The loop left below the rail can then take a dropper wire about 0.5mm. Easier when attaching the fishplate rather than inserting afterwards.

20230121_175542.jpg

20230121_175629.jpg


I found the Masokits fishplates were not good for repetitively joining and unjoining separate pieces of rail. Once fixed to the end of one rail, it was very tricky to insert the foot of the next without a lot of fettling, and they tended to disintregrate on repeated attach/detach cycles.

These EMGS ones acting on the web only provide as much alignment as needed I find.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3031
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:28 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Here are the EMGS fishplates. Very simple to use. Just fold the pair around the rail, squeeze into the web with parallel pliers, and solder. The loop left below the rail can then take a dropper wire about 0.5mm. Easier when attaching the fishplate rather than inserting afterwards.

20230121_175542.jpg
20230121_175629.jpg

I found the Masokits fishplates were not good for repetitively joining and unjoining separate pieces of rail. Once fixed to the end of one rail, it was very tricky to insert the foot of the next without a lot of fettling, and they tended to disintregrate on repeated attach/detach cycles.

These EMGS ones acting on the web only provide as much alignment as needed I find.


Those look very similar to the Colin Waite ones. I have a couple of packs of those, acquired before the current trend of them going for seriously stupid money on eBay!

Best,
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:05 am

Peco produce a rather nice fishplate/rail joiner for BH rail, Code SL114, which might be of use.

User avatar
stephenfreeman
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:13 am

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby stephenfreeman » Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:04 am

They certainly are! Very useful for hinged joints. Unfortunately I used all my Colin Waite ones years ago and now have to use the EMGS ones, which don't have such good bolt detail (IMHO).

davebradwell
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:48 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:08 pm

Looks like you soldered your dropper wires to the bottom of the rail, Julian. I did this and they all fell off over a period of time. Layout was in unheated building and subsequent discussion here suggests this is the source of the problem. Either solder droppers in the web or be careful where you store your layout.

DaveB

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:06 am

What I like about the EMGS fishplates is that (by folding and wrapping them around the rail joint) they provide a loop into which I can insert and solder a dropper. Here is that photo enlarged showing the dropper looking a bit hook shaped, though I'm normally aiming for an L shape. Do you think Dave that this provides a sufficiently robust connection? I'm working on the hypothesis that this is a mechanical as well as soldered join, given that the fishplate is soldered to the rail web on both sides.

It's tricky and has used a good deal of time to make this arrangement but to only one of the rails leaving the other free to slide.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:10 am

20230122_092221.jpg


20230116_223915.jpg


The gap between the turnouts looks large if you magnify the picture. It is a thumbnail thickness, but as Tony Wilkins said, do I have a British Standard Thumb?

Here is the turnout before laying down - I soldered a dropper to all 4 rails of the crossing but just to the underside, as well as to the fishplate in this case
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:12 am

Just a reminder to anyone reading this and thinking of trying this construction method, to insulate the sleepers first. I did these with a flat file in seconds (obviously plain track here). The gap is invisible when painted. See previous discussions on this at the end of the previous page for various methods.

And a reminder that it's far easier, if using droppers with EMGS fishplates at rail joints within the turnout (cosmetic or not) to attach the dropper with the fishplate in the one operation, than to insert it subsequently. The dropper wire will need to be no thicker than the 0.56 I used.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Brian T
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Brian T » Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:21 pm

Hello,
Can you tell me how many turnouts you are able to construct from a Masokits Etched Point Chair Fret please, assuming the turnout is something along the lines of a B8 or similar?
Many thanks,
Brian

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:26 pm

Hi Brian

It's a bit odd that you get loads of running chairs but only enough point chairs for about 2 turnouts. I say About because I forget in detail and it depends how fussy you are to use exactly the right chair. You might get more if you're not too fussy. The slide chairs are essential. These with the nose chairs are the most distinctive. I suggest getting one kit and see how you do.

You'll get quicker the more you do like any modelling task.

Brian T
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Brian T » Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:15 pm

Hi Julian,
That's excellent, many thanks. I did try a Masokits turnout some years ago - I was very impressed with the results but did find it time consuming; I'm looking at various options at the moment so it's still a possible option.

Cheers,
Brian

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Tips for Masokits etched chairs construction

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:26 pm

Some tips - little things that make a useful difference

1. Make the insulation gap before anything else when cutting the sleepers from the strip in the first place. (Unless you do it as Dave and Bob advocate with a tiny cut immediately next to the chair). I have found the type of file with a shallow curve shape is best. The object being that once painted there is no sign of the gap. With a flat file I have started taking too much off.

2. When the running chair is cut from the etch a tiny piece is left on the other side of the wedge (wooden block). This is not worth filing off except it does get in the way of the fishplate at rail ends if you want the prototypical sleeper spacing. These photos show the difference. Also shown is where I've not fully trimmed off the etch carrier at the other end.

20231028_120941.jpg

20231028_121103.jpg

20231028_121207.jpg


3. When the turnout is complete the question will be how long to trim the rail ends. Of course cut them a bit long and file back, but don't file back shorter than the length of half a fishplate, keep trying the fishplate on. A normal fishplate is 18" or 6mm, so etch or plastic cusp should be filed back to that dimension.
20231028_120146.jpg

20231028_122243.jpg


4. I think I might not in future use foamboard on which to make the turnout. It is too squashy for the downward force needed when pushing the chairs to shape under/against the rail, and some parts of my turnouts aren't ideally level. The foamboard was very useful for taking pins to hold things in place. I've found the 7mm cork on my layout really useful in the same way. In future I'd use an offcut of this glued to a piece of ply
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Feb 19, 2024 3:02 pm

One more thing I've learned. That the rail top height of a typical glass fibre copperclad sleeper plus Masokits chair may not match the height of a seemingly pretty similar Exactoscale sleeper plus plastic chair. I used Wizard models sleepers. I don't know what I did here to get such a height mismatch! There was a spill of Brasso after laying the turnout on the left that may have bulged the foundation. I had to replace the plastic sleepers with old approx 1mm thick copperclad ones. This has been the most extreme example but a slight mismatch is likely when mixing various different types of track system. Obviously enough - but its easy to miss a slight height discrepancy unless looking carefully from the side at railtop level.

20240217_131107.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1972
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Noel » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:21 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:I don't know what I did here to get such a height mismatch! There was a spill of Brasso after laying the turnout on the left that may have bulged the foundation. I had to replace the plastic sleepers with old approx 1mm thick copperclad ones.

Looking at the top photo it appears that not only are the sleepers on the right hand side thicker, but the plastic chairs on them are holding the rail further above the sleepers than the etched ones.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Feb 20, 2024 11:06 am

Yes Noel. The (phone)camera makes a lot clearer what isn’t so easy to see with the septuagenarian naked eye at an uncomfortable angle! But I've measured the sleeper thickness etc this morning - 1.6 plastic, 1.5 or 6 (varies) copperclad. The chair etch is 0.38 so folded over is 0.76 or perhaps nearly the 0.8 that the plastic chairs give. Very little in it. Yet look at this mismatch I got in the yard that I didn't even notice at the time (and has caused no derailments with any stock!) rather spoiling the trackwork if looking from a 4mm scale man's height!

20240220_103746.jpg

20240220_103840.jpg



Whatever the cause it just emphasises the need for vigilance when laying the track for vertical alignment (from a horizontal viewpoint) as well as the much easier to see and more critical horizontal alignment (from a vertical point of view)

Easier to spot of course if using fishplates but all these places are where an insulation break is needed, and the plastic ones don't hold the rails level in the same way if using them. I'll be glueing them on later.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Feb 20, 2024 11:20 am

Julian Roberts wrote:The chair etch is 0.38 so folded over is 0.76 or perhaps nearly the 0.8 that the plastic chairs give. Very little in it.

Prototype chair base is 1.3/4" thick = 0.58mm scale.

Apart from special pointwork chairs for superelevation.

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.

User avatar
ianpenberth
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:25 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby ianpenberth » Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:40 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:
Julian Roberts wrote:The chair etch is 0.38 so folded over is 0.76 or perhaps nearly the 0.8 that the plastic chairs give. Very little in it.

Prototype chair base is 1.3/4" thick = 0.58mm scale.

Apart from special pointwork chairs for superelevation.

Martin.


Masokits chairs are etched on 12thou brass, 0.3mm giving the desired 0.6mm thickness when folded.

One can use brass shims underneath them to model the special chairs, if so inclined ;) .
Ian
PenBits Model Railways - Diesel bogie springing and detailing

davebradwell
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:48 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Tue Feb 20, 2024 9:51 pm

Seems like another example of that speciaal case where you solder 2 layers of 0.45 together to produce a coupling rod and it turns out to be over a mm thick so causes grief on your crankpin.

DaveB

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:27 am

Another go at measuring the etch shows me you're quite right Ian, it's 0.3. Take my other measurements (and everything I say!) with a pinch of salt, too. Having an accurate tool is one thing, using it accurately is another; is this getting into the realm of the art/science of metrology?


Return to “Track and Turnouts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 1 guest