Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
ted.stephens
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby ted.stephens » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:29 am

Here is an extract from SR Pway Drawing No 12 showing the E switch arrangement.

E Switch Plan.JPG


The positions of the joints as noted from Templot are the same as those shown on this drawing, red circles. You are correct in that there isn't enough space to fit separate chairs at the joint, this area of the switch is supported by PR and PL chairs, Nos 1 to 9.

On this drawing the L1 chairs appear on the 20th bearer from the switch tip.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:35 pm

Hello Ted

I'm very grateful for your assistance. I didn't really expect anyone to come up with an answer to my question, or even that anyone would be reading it!

It's a relief that I've cut up the rails to the right lengths.

My main issue now, having been enlightened by your post, is where to first fix the switch (how far from the tip) as I think I read on Tony's turnout thread that the last two of what look like slidechairs are block chairs that allow some movement (on a B switch) - which leaves me a bit muddled but I haven't got round to asking in the right place. If that is the case here it might seem the rail isn't fixed till after the joint. But - where the prototype fixes it isn't necessarily where I will fix it as (I think) the model rail is relatively stiffer. But to know how the prototype does it is the first stage. I have a real joint but soldered together firmly with Masokits fishplates using higher temperature solder.

ted.stephens
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby ted.stephens » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:46 am

Here is the detail around the area of interest. The bearers are numbered from the switch tip.

Capture1.JPG

In all cases the stock rail is bolted to the PJ chairs with a bolt passing through the web of the rail and a nut on the outside. No cast iron blocks are required up to and including bearer 7 because the point rail is planed up to this point and is supported laterally by resting on the stock rail face so can't move outwards.

Bearer 8 PJ chairs are shown as only having a stud bolt.

The PJ chairs on bearers 9 and 10 have cast iron blocks to support the point rail laterally and to stop any outward movement whilst allowing the point rail to move inwards when that side of the switch is open. The bolt fixes the cast iron block to the stock rail.

Capture2.JPG

E switch chairs, from bearer 11 onward there are 9 PL/R chairs which fix both stock and point rails. Note the position of the switch anchor is shown between bearers 11 and 12.

Capture3.JPG

A to D switch chairs 1PL/R and 2PL/R allow the point rail to move inwards which explains the apparent anomaly.

Capture4.JPG
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:06 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Hello Ted

My main issue now, having been enlightened by your post, is where to first fix the switch (how far from the tip) as I think I read on Tony's turnout thread that the last two of what look like slidechairs are block chairs that allow some movement (on a B switch).


Hi Julian.
Ted's post has clarified the situation regarding E switches accompanied by a wonderful set of drawings.
Your comment above is correct in so far as it goes, but the combination of slide and block chairs is a little more complicated than that.
For most types of switch there are a number of P slide chairs followed by a number of Block chairs. So far so good.
For A, B, C and D switches the first two block chairs of each switch allow the blade to move.
For A, B and D switches, the remaining block chairs firmly hold the rail in place. D switches have four fixed block chairs, two of them beyond the joint.
C switches have three fixed block chairs before the joint.
The situation with E and F switches is different as they only have P slide chairs and fixed block chairs, the first two of which before the joint are fixed (as Ted's drawing shows), and had the keys on the inside of the rails, as there was not room for them in the usual place.
So a sprung switchrail will always be held fixed by at least two chairs before the joint.

Incidentally only the LMS and SR used REA F switches. The largest the LNER used were E switches.
Regards
Tony.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:58 pm

Hi Ted and Tony

Many thanks both for all this help. Would it agreeable to you if I copy and paste that exchange onto the turnout question thread?

I've got a limited choice remaining in etched chairs.  There are running chairs, slide chairs, and block chairs to choose from for this area.  The block chairs have no key so I've used a running chair outside the stock rail - which has only one bolt....(Check rail chairs have two bolts but I've used them all up) 

20210407_164605.jpg


The block chairs are limited in quantity - half of them have two bolts and half of them one as here.

The two inside chairs to the right of the fishplate (towards the blade tip) inside are truncated slide chairs. Does this look right(ish) I wonder.

20210407_174059.jpg


Or is this right (ignoring foreground stockrail chairs)

20210407_164637.jpg


I think this one is right re- reading the previous post. And more block chairs to the left of the fishplate of course
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:10 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Hi Ted and Tony

Many thanks both for all this help. Would it agreeable to you if I copy and paste that exchange onto the turnout question thread?

Hi Julian.
I certainly have no objection.
Regards
Tony.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:42 am

I bought blades primarily so that I would know the stockrail side would be mating properly with the stockrail, flush all the way, once it is straightened.

So the tip of the diverging blade is 0.15ish or less - pretty damn fine for a joggled switch. It's 1.9 high or maybe a tad over, 1.95. The Web on the stockrail side is not apparent till 20mm from the tip.

With the stockrails set up without joggles, the tip fits at about the second timber.

20210408_121159.jpg


20210408_115801.jpg


Now I'm going to wreck it to make it undercut. 8-)

This is the table I made for a B blade. The E blade is double the length.

Table of width and height undercut blade.jpg


It took me about 3 hours on each blade to get them undercut to what I think should work. I'm a slow worker. It worked nicely with a couple of compensated test vehicles just held in place with two nails. It seems to me (from my limited experience so far) the critical bit is where the blade rises to the gauge height, which is around 12mm from the tip here.

20210409_124107.jpg


The stockrail gauging had been all re-done, reverting back to no widening. Here it is at the stockgauge with the actual switchrail being used.

20210411_213153.jpg


Now I'm going to try out Martin's approach, despite Tony and Keith suggesting otherwise, and spring the blade against the stock rail. The rail has to be bent slightly and held with the block chairs. I'm starting with the diverging blade. The turnout is a LH, on a right hand bend.

Without stretcher bars the blade opening is more than spec with a flangeway gauge tool at the stockgauge position.

20210411_205748.jpg


The spring is quite enough with the blade fixed 5 timbers further from the tip. This amount more flex will I hope help the issue of the blade opening once stretcher bars do their stuff. The remaining block chairs towards the tip will be cosmetic, fixed to the blade only.



The stockrail is now fixed properly (slide chairs and block chairs downstream from the stockgauge now properly guaged) making sure I don't disturb the switch rail when using the tool.

20210411_220508.jpg


I've managed to fit in the bridge chairs at the 20th bearer, with a bit of persuasion.

20210411_220527.jpg


(I should have specified or asked if I could have the blade the length I needed. As it came it was as long as anyone would normally need, but I had arbitrarily drawn up on Templot a 60 foot length after the switch rail joint. The turnout will thus have a real rail break to allow for expansion etc, possibly unnecessary, where the real one might have had (no photos to that amount of detail of this location in the cutting). Templot doesn't show any break on this length turnout between those at the blade and the crossing as it was variable between companies or according to circumstances (if I understand correctly).

Anyway I cut the bought blade at the rail break between S12 and 13 and attached longer rails, using Masokits fishplates which act as railjoiners too.)
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:11 pm

Switch now set up with three stretcher bars. Working perfectly testing with some large wheel locos (CR 4-4-0 and 0-4-4 - the Compound completion has been pushed into the long grass again, like the Williams review of rail franchising). Just a lot of chairs to do now. The crossing end was complete some time ago bar some chairing details.

Rather fuzzy video shows actuation will have to act midway so as to pull on both ends. Actuation will be below the baseboard in a yet to be finalized manner- these piano wires will be bent downwards through the board. I didn't find the blade set up is rigid enough for one ended operation. I'm not sure if the springing of the blades served a useful purpose, except that testing was possible and successful without stretcher bars, with a drill bit holding one blade open.




20210424_165136.jpg

20210425_174158.jpg
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:37 am

This topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7306 discussed the perceived difficulty of making turnouts. Always the chief one is reputed to be the V.

A friend with CNC technology made me jigs in balsa wood for my Kyle turnouts as per the recent article in the Snooze. But the design of this long turnout changed after Martin Wynne took a look at the plan so I had to do without.

I printed off another copy of the template - all I needed was the crossing V area - and stuck it down to a piece of wood. I filed the point and splice rails as per the EMGS manual instructions, and placed them on top of the template. The most difficult bit was making sure they were both upright and in the right place as I stuck the black-tack down on them. Then soldered them together. If any part is a bit proud it can be filed away later. While on the template fix the far ends of the rails together with a scrap of strip to keep them together for the next bit of rougher handling. The Masokits crossing shim is then attached under the V to give it extra strength and make it the correct height. Then plenty of filing and sanding to get them really smooth with the blunt tip rounded.

Not saying this is fully pukka, more that if I can do it anyone can, and on test this works fine. It took me about an afternoon. There are lots of instructions around on methods of filing the rails - that is the boring bit that seemed to take longest.

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20210319_113230 (1).jpg

20210318_151558.jpg



20210319_125059.jpg


20210318_204126.jpg

20210318_204135.jpg
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:19 pm

Finally getting the long turnout E15 finished. The switch I make more flexible by cheating. Here is how it is functionally, fixed on third sleeper after the switch rail joint.

20211125_204404.jpg


The chairs are added to the rail but not the sleeper. In all cases I'm using the Masokits chair that of the options looks most like the real thing, as far as I can tell.

20211125_210511.jpg


End result - I've removed a slide chair that was incorrect I believe on the upper stock rail.

20211125_221113.jpg


Not pretty, close up, (a comment on my technique, not on the etches) - but when it's painted the imperfections will be fairly insignificant I hope in terms of a layout.
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:47 am

Couple of shots from the ends. Calculated that there are 376 separate chairs or half chairs used for this turnout. As I neared finishing it I found I had one or two areas where the gauge became a little tight and that it's pretty hard to adjust as the whole thing becomes so strong and rigid, especially once the cosmetic inner half chairs are added.

20211127_092831.jpg


20211127_092854.jpg


Next step is to clean up and smooth down the insulation gaps. Quite a tedious task which I've already done on the turnout I've since made for the club layout Garlieston. I think the painted finished article is good enough for me.

20211107_203611.jpg
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:44 am

Looks good Julian.

Julian Roberts wrote:As I neared finishing it I found I had one or two areas where the gauge became a little tight and that it's pretty hard to adjust as the whole thing becomes so strong and rigid, especially once the cosmetic inner half chairs are added.


When I have built flat bottom turnouts with etched brass rail fixings I have made frequent checks for gauge. The advantage of all soldered construction with brass fixings is that things can be adjusted by the application of a soldering iron.

Julian Roberts wrote:Next step is to clean up and smooth down the insulation gaps. Quite a tedious task ...


I have used a sanding disc in a mini drill which works well. Disks can be made by applying double sided tape to the back of silicon carbide (wet and dry) paper and cutting out circles which can be stuck to a suitable flexible backing disc. This is an idea that came from Colin Craig which works well.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:55 am

It helps if you avoid putting the gaps down the centre of the sleepers where they are very prominent. Try the gauge side of the nearest rail, right against the chair, where they'll be invisible from the more realistic viewing angles.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:04 am

Thanks for those ideas Terry and Dave. Yes and Tony Wilkins showed his way of insulating on the Brimsdown thread which I think is the same as yours Terry. Found I have this box of useful things given to me some years ago. I have already filled the gaps with Araldite as I'm quite neurotic about making the insulation reliable, which is why I hadn't gone down your route Dave which you kindly mentioned previously. I thought that making the gaps wide enough to be totally reliable would make them quite prominent, and much easier to fill them in and smooth off if they are in the middle. Looking at Bob's unpainted turnout on Page 1, I can see the gaps are not at all noticeable. But I remember you saying somewhere else that a friend had a short on his layout and couldn't find it...
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davebradwell
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:04 pm

I suggest that whether your gaps grow back or not depends on how you cut them not where and they're more discreet inside the nearest rail Don't think friend's problem was gaps. The vulnerable bit of a pc sleeper gap is usually on the corner of a sleeper where copper burrs or whiskers are carried round the edge so I do them by hand with a special tool that can be manipulated round the edge - it's just a bit of junior hacksaw blade soldered into a bit of 1/4" rod or tube.

I'd do almost anything to avoid the chore of filling and trying to tidy up the gaps.

Anybody got any photo trimming software?

DaveB
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bécasse
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby bécasse » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:32 pm

davebradwell wrote:Anybody got any photo trimming software?


Like this do you mean, Dave?
DB'sTool.jpg
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Lindsay G
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Lindsay G » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:12 am

Dave,

Microsoft PAINT will allow you to trim your images (just as Becasse has posted, but not indicated how) to whatever shape or size you want and also "resize" them if the image is too big to post to the Forum (and a lot more besides if you want to get into it - next up is the Rotate function for anyone who can't get images orientated the correct way ). There are obviously better and more sophisticate packages around but PAINT is really all you need for posting images to the Forum (that's all I've ever bothered using) and it comes free with Window, you'll probably find it within Windows Accessories on the Start menu.

There we go, another distraction thrown into the pot!

Lindsay

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Noel
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Noel » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:41 am

Lindsay G wrote:you'll probably find it within Windows Accessories on the Start menu.


Don't get it confused with Paint 3D, which has its own separate entry under "P" in the menu and is a rather different program.
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Will L
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Will L » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:51 pm

davebradwell wrote:Anybody got any photo trimming software?

While your in Windows, just click on the jpg file and you'll get the image displayed in an app called "photos" with icons above which will allow you to crop or rotate the image, plus further simple editing tools if required. There's always about 10 different ways of doing anything basic on a PC these days

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:40 pm

Useful picture of the gadget, thanks Dave. For what it's worth I crop the photo I take on my phone if necessary (easily done), usually to diminish the visible amount of surrounding chaos.

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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:23 pm

I used an ancient Canon camera and an Apple laptop so I'm still working on it. My old Windows laptop just sits in the corner in a semi-permanent state of update these days and rarely condescends to speaking to me at all.

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Winander
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Winander » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:17 pm

davebradwell wrote:I used an ancient Canon camera and an Apple laptop so I'm still working on it. My old Windows laptop just sits in the corner in a semi-permanent state of update these days and rarely condescends to speaking to me at all. DaveB


The Photos app in Mac OSX will crop photos https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/photos/pht13f0918f0/mac.
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davebradwell
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby davebradwell » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 pm

Thanks for that, Richard, once I loaded a photo it all fell into place. No excuses now.

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Terry Bendall
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 pm

davebradwell wrote:I'd do almost anything to avoid the chore of filling and trying to tidy up the gaps.


The solution is to use the sanding disc as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This is the method recommended by Colin Craig and gives a gradual slope rather than a cut that has to be filled in.

Picture 1670.jpg


This is short test piece of FB track with pandrol clip fittings. the clips are cosmetic with the rail soldered to base plates to give the 1 in 20 inclination. The paler colour is the board under the copper

No gaps visible and it is quick and easy to do

Terry Bendall
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Masokits etched chairs turnout construction for Kyle of Lochalsh

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:26 am

Thanks Terry for your advice. With a catchpoint still to make I'll be adopting one of the approaches suggested by you and Dave.
20211224_224218.jpg

I definitely don't recommend the approach I took - it has been a laborious task to smooth off the insulation gaps I'd filled with Araldite. But the worst thing I did was to choose the long point for my learning curve, where I used the brass polishing brush in minidrill to clean up. This brought up the detail beautifully but I didn't realise was digging out all the Araldite so I was left with the gaps showing, so I had to fill them all in again. Then on re-spraying I found I hadn't smoothed many of them down nearly enough. So this is the situation for a third spray later today!
20211226_165430.jpg


However having learned to keep the brush away from the gaps the rest of the process has gone fine, all the others are now primed, and I'm agreeably surprised at the detail visible despite my rather liberal use of solder (hampered by bit tip problems)
20211221_211529.jpg

20211226_171012.jpg

Question now is whether to spray the sleeper colour and hand paint the rails and fixings or the other way round (or neither)... Jim S-W sprayed a basic colour of camouflage brown in his Brettell Rd thread but mentions only a little more. viewtopic.php?t=3805&start=600
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