Kyle of Lochalsh tandem turnout length and other questions

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Julian Roberts
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Kyle of Lochalsh tandem turnout length and other questions

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:40 am

Hi folks. I'm trying to design a 3 way turnout on Templot to replicate the prototype as shown on the OS 25 inch map of around 1900. I can make the tracks accurately follow the lines on the map, but I can't do that without the switch tips preceding the mark for them on the map by about 8 sleepers. I've asked on the Templot club but no one has replied. It won't matter in practical terms regarding space or capacity, it's more that I'm intrigued as to what might be going on. This 3 way leads to a turntable at the single end, and a loco shed at the other. I have used the Templot "make tandem" and haven't attempted doing it manually. For some reason the sleepers don't get shown at just the place the switch tips are on the map, so the mark can be seen. Of course I'm assuming the mark indicates where the switch commences.
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3 way No 1.PNG
Last edited by Julian Roberts on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: 3 way turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:15 pm

i don't think you can expect 100% accuracy from an OS 25" map. So I would be happy with the match you have. You would need a railway track plan to do much better. If you want to get it shorter it should be possible, the switches look rather like C switches, if so try B instead.
Oh, and that's a tandem turnout not a 3-way.
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Keith
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Hardwicke
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Re: 3 way turnout length question

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:16 pm

I'm trying to get my head round that. There is a three throw at Butterley but this is a three way. Generally both the vee and the switchblade must be supported just like a normal point.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 3 way turnout length question

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:18 pm

Have you worked out the general length/angle? If so then refer to the lead tables for switches and work back from there. Just like the real railways do
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 3 way turnout length question

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:20 pm

Sleeper spacing then follows a standard (for the railway/era) spacing.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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grovenor-2685
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Re: 3 way turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:09 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I'm trying to get my head round that. There is a three throw at Butterley but this is a three way. Generally both the vee and the switchblade must be supported just like a normal point.

Three throw and three way are two ways to describe the same thing, ie where the two sets of blades are colocated.
The tandem is the description for cases like the one under discussion where the two sets of blades follow each other and operate independently.
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Keith
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:32 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:i don't think you can expect 100% accuracy from an OS 25" map. So I would be happy with the match you have. You would need a railway track plan to do much better. If you want to get it shorter it should be possible, the switches look rather like C switches, if so try B instead.
Oh, and that's a tandem turnout not a 3-way.


Thanks Keith - title duly edited. As far as I recall this is an A switch - but I found altering the switch between A and B didn't make much difference. I'll see if I can re-do it and show how little it changes.

Thanks Hardwicke - photo attached. As may be evident I don't know much about this. I went onto Templot(with a lot of help from a friend up here) to see if I can design a layout to follow the prototype map and I've managed to do it all in the exact lengths of the turnouts printed there, except to get this tandem in the space. As Keith says, it's quite likely the map isn't 100% accurate I'm basically quite happy to go with that. I haven't seen any photos that can help further on this question. Yes of course the missing sleepers are easy to do on the model - I don't know why they are missing as it comes out on the screen.

Actually on closer examination this photo does show the switch tips as per the map
Attachments
Turntable.PNG
Turntable.PNG (434.96 KiB) Viewed 731 times
httpswww.ambaile.org.ukdetailen276381EN27638-the-main-railway-line-entering-kyle.htm.png
Last edited by Julian Roberts on Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:39 pm

i certainly couldn't locate the switch tips from either of those photos. :)
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Keith
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steve howe
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby steve howe » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:54 pm

Looks like a fascinating location Julian, even got a 'sneak off' line to the fiddleyard!

where is it?

Steve

Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:30 pm

Keith I think I can just see the tip of a switch and the related "set" on the photo, and here is another showing the lever after the tracks have gone.
018-hr-water-tower-kyle-of-lochalsh-engine-shed-11-05-63-john-boyesarpt-001.jpg


Actually, my skills seem to have suddenly improved, now I'm finding I can get the tandem into the length it should be! I'll add a screenshot in a moment


Kyle of Lochalsh Steve. Yes and a bridge hides the exit to the other fiddleyard...
Detail, layout orientation.PNG

Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Tandem that fits.PNG


Haven't done the by eye adjustments to the check rails yet.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:17 pm

This last photo with levers is certainly more convincing especially as ir shows both levers.
I would sort out the timbers (timber shoving function) before worrying about the check rails.
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Keith
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:30 pm

Hmm that's another load to learn how to do on Templot, and I think it's pretty obvious what needs doing when actually making it! Check rails done no problem.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:33 pm

Its clear enough where the gaps are but the bit round the centre crossing where the timbers are doubled up really does need sorting properly, the shove timbers thing is pretty simple actually. I've done that and then just drawn checkrails in on the printout to save the trouble of drawing them. This back before the make tandem feature was introduced so overlaid turnouts did not do any check rails or wing rails for the centre crossing.
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Keith
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Winander
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Winander » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:38 pm

Julian,

The timbering is likely to be interlaced :twisted:

I'm half way through one and gave up on timber shoving in Templot (a very tedious process). I just cut 9 foot sleepers (10 inch) as I decided for the period I was modelling anything more substantial was unlikely to have been used, and fitted them to the template working from the vee. The only problem is getting the sleepers centered to the centre line of the track.

I also combined a check rail with a wing rail where they were more or less adjacent* - no idea if this was the correct thing to do but the project is just an experiment.

I look forward to seeing how you progress.

best wishes,
Richard

*on the centre road of the crossing
Richard Hodgson

Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:24 pm

Winander wrote:Julian,

The timbering is likely to be interlaced :twisted:



Thanks Richard for the warning as well as the interest.

Well I've just had a brief look around and it doesn't seem that interlaced timbering is something Templot will magic up for me. (I do know what it is!) I wonder how much it matters. I always start things intending to keep it simple (stupid), but get waylaid by the anxiety it could be better. I really do want to create the muck and grime typical of a steam shed to contrast with the pristine clarity and clean unpolluted Highland scene. In the previous photo the sleepers can't be made out on the shed tracks. I really doubt it's worth the bother if I take the liberty of modelling a scene where the clean up has been somewhat overlooked of late.

I was going to prove that by attaching the next picture, but it looks as though it somewhat proves the reverse, at least on this slip. Is this timbering interlaced? - I rather fear it is!
Single slip view.PNG

But this shows a goodly amount of filth:
useful pic.PNG
useful pic.PNG (303.7 KiB) Viewed 600 times


Found a warning of the practicalities involved on this post by Lindsay of this parish.
https://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=70

I was thinking even before this question of sleepering style of building turnouts onto a base permanently, and moving that base onto the layout proper - perhaps of cork, or thin plywood, perhaps plastic.

Winander
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Winander » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:50 pm

Julian,

I was of the same mind as you, bury it in ballast and you cannot tell, but the chairs will give it away....

I didn't find it too difficult using a rather generous pitch between sleepers. They had to do it on the real railway, so we should be able to. I would endorse Lindsay's comment on the crassoc site, don't print the sleepers on the template, just ensure you print the centre line of the track so you can centre the sleepers. Oh, and , yes, it will all fall apart if you try to remove it from the template. I soldered together the vees and wing rails using etch waste under the rails where the chairs would go. If, as me, you are using loose heeled switches, that is another thing that will immediately go out of alignment, so each stock rail is soldered to the point rail.

Bottom line is that if it is less than satisfactory, you have had a go and can bury it in ballast and muck!

best wishes,
Richard
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:55 pm

Hi Julian,

Sorry you didn't get the reply you were looking for on Templot Club. I got rather more involved in fixing the bug you found.

I have found the switch toe mark to be the one detail which can reasonably be relied on in the historic OS maps.

The tandem seems doable within the mapped detail, with the switch tips aligned to the toe mark:

Image

The second turnout is a 9ft switch with 1:6.5 RAM generic V-crossing.

The first turnout is 1:6.25 RAM. The drawn first switch is clearly wrong and too short for locos. Templot has used its short 1:24 switch for it.

The third V-crossing comes in at 1:14.37 RAM to be exactly opposite the 1:6.5 V-crossing (these crossings are checking each other, so need to be exactly opposite or very closely so). A 1:14 crossing is more likely, with the lead length stretched a bit.

Sorry the map is still North at the top, I didn't rotate it to match your layout (don't know the exact angle).

Looking at your photo of the levers relative to the tank, the whole thing might need moving a fraction North-West, although levers aren't always exactly opposite the switch toes.

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:02 pm

The slip in that photo does not have interlaced timbers, I think it would be all but impossible with a double slip. (Cue for someone to produce a photo).
It would be pretty difficult with a tandem as well, the chair spacing would be to much with 3 sleepers replacing each timber and packing would be even harder than a simple interlaced switch, I would stick with standard timbering. If you want to have a go at an interlaced one do it with a simple turnout.
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Keith
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John Palmer
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby John Palmer » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:56 am

Can't produce a photograph, but the North British certainly produced drawings for diamonds and slips with partially interlaced sleepering (on the acute crossings), although they were obliged to use timbering up to 14" in width in the centre of the formation to support the K crossings. https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=401&forum_id=1&page=1 has a discussion on sleepered leads and brought to light some very useful information, including, at Post 69, an image of the NB drawings mentioned, courtesy of Richard Chown via Allan Ferguson.

In any crossing work the position of the timbering gets dictated by the A,B,C,D,X,Y and Z special chairs (where present). Timbers have to be aligned in such a way that those special chairs can be securely attached to them and in a tandem this goes far to dictate where those timbers have to be positioned and how they are aligned. For this reason I agree with what Keith says about the difficulty of interlacing sleepers through the full length of a tandem - I've never yet managed to create a 'sleepers only' tandem in Templot that had sleepers in all the the places they were required for the special chairs.

If you want to do a layout in which all turnouts are have interlaced sleepering then consider doing so with a limited range of leads and crossing angles, and save one of each item in the range as a library turnout - each time you add a new turnout derived from the library item any interlacing in it will be preserved, so reducing the timber shoving required. Whilst you are at it, consider whether it would be appropriate to substitute a custom switch representing your chosen prototype company's switch design in the place of the REA or GWR switch you are likely to have chosen from the range Templot offers. I did this for my West Highland-based layout design and standardised on a 12' loose heel switch that saw widespread use on the North British but bore little resemblance to later REA designs.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Tandem turnout length interlacing and switch type questions

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:58 am

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

grovenor-2685 wrote:If you want to have a go at an interlaced one do it with a simple turnout.


John Palmer wrote:
If you want to do a layout in which all turnouts are have interlaced sleepering


I don't!!

People get very excited about interlaced timbering but as far as I'm concerned it's just a niusance that's going to slow me down getting this thing made! I am looking for excuses to keep it simple (and I am very stupid!) So I'm very glad Keith to hear from you that the slip isn't interlaced. But very grateful for your help John and Richard. I'm going to make this with copperclad so if I feel I have to do some interlacing I can cheat by soldering where rail just rests on the end of a timber to increase rigidity.

Martin I'm very grateful and would not expect you to be able to help with everyone's designs. I haven't tried doing it again yet, just so say now your image hasn't come out
Martin Wynne wrote:
Image



I was surprised you said the turnout crossings are opposite each other. I found that was how they came out in Templot quite easily but thought the photos showed otherwise - but obviously it's difficult to properly tell when the photo is taken from such a long way away.
httpswww.ambaile.org.ukdetailen276381EN27638-the-main-railway-line-entering-kyle.htm.png


Regarding switches, that's another thing I'm not terribly excited by - the date is going to be 40s/50s BR, so will loose heel switches be obligatory to be correct?

I've always thought the tie bars are a more obvious feature on pointwork but seldom modelled, because of the difficulties involved. The back of a wheel should never need touch the open blade so on ply and rivet constuction there's no reason that I can see why both blades shouldn't be of the same polarity, enabling a strong functional tie bar - but I won't be doing that on copperclad.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:28 am

Hi Julian,

I'm sorry the image isn't showing, the cera.net data centre seems to be offline this morning. Here it is:

julian_tandem.png


You can't assume the track in the 1950s was the same as 1902, it could have been renewed at some stage. However, it's very likely that a yard tandem would be using loose-heel switches to the end.

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Terry Bendall
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:09 am

Julian Roberts wrote:People get very excited about interlaced timbering but as far as I'm concerned it's just a niusance that's going to slow me down


Interlaced sleepers were common on the LBSCR and the model of Plumpton Green, built by Barry Luck features these. Barry's web site gives a very brief description of producing the templates using Templot see http://www.lbscrmodels.co.uk/pg2.html.

I recall Barry saying that once the templates were produced, building the pointwork using interlaced sleepers was quite quick.

Terry Bendall

Lindsay G
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby Lindsay G » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:19 am

I don't really want to hijack this thread towards interlacing, but I'd argue against interlacing slowing you down. Interlacing pointwork is constructed from normal sleepers that come cut to length and pre-drilled for the rivets. It's just a matter of riveting them up or just laying them for functional chairs (or a combination of both). With a timbered turnout, the timber has to be cut to the correct length and reasonably accurately drilled for the rivets - by the time that's done you could be well into constructing interlaced trackwork.

If you did go down the interlaced route, and there is evidence of interlacing In some photographs above, the most common mistake made in constructing them is placing the sleepers too close together. They weren't spaced as closely as timbers on pointwork or sleepers on plain track but wider, eye-openingly wider at times - try and space per normal spacing and there's no room for ballast. This is from a CR drawing :


Interlace spacing.jpg

Based on experience, I'd change some things that I said on the CRA Forum. For a three way, I'd still lay them by eye, but on a crossover or more complex trackwork where you may have to work from 2 or more ends there can be a lot of repositioning to get everything fitting in and looking right by which time the stick has gone from double sided tape. For the build of the roundhouse boards on Burntisland 1883, I shoved the timbers on Templot for build by others, more work at the design stage but a lot less at the build stage. And on these boards the trackwork was laid still attached to the template and the running over them is a lot better compared to the ferry boards where there was movement on transfer from template to baseboard (lesson learnt from that experience).

Lindsay

davebradwell
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Re: Tandem turnout length question

Postby davebradwell » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:49 am

Weren't they called "sleepered" turnouts, they were on the NER, although I believe "turnout" is a modellers' word? Isn't "interlacing" something else to do with overlapping pointwork? You might also have a timbered crossing with the rest sleepered due to a replacement although unlikely here.

Julian, was the track near Kyle shed pulled about when the larger turntable was fitted and the rock face chiselled away a bit? This might have been on the same centre, of course - it would depend on the chiselling.

DaveB


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