Catch Points

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:10 pm

I'm sorry I am unable to assist further with additional diagrams and/or locking tables. My information is derived from Chris Osment's article on Bridgwater Railway signalling, which is available for all to read at http://trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sdjr/bw-branch.pdf. None of us is immune from making mistakes, but Chris has always come across as a meticulous researcher, and I would be surprised to discover that what he has set down is in error.

Reference to Chris' article indicates that for a time 16 and 26 points were fitted with/worked by Black's Economical FPLs, and I suggest that the symbology of the 1948 diagram may reflect this so far as 26 points are concerned.

I have no notion of the arrangements for handling Bridgwater arrivals, but in this respect the picture at p.66 of the 'Norman Lockett Archive' is of interest. Taken on the same date as the picture posted upthread, it shows 43218 on the bay line between 19 and 26 points, at the Bridgwater end of the non-gangwayed third brake that was pretty much the standard passenger formation on the Bridgwater Railway from 1930 or before. The picture also shows 58088 running in with the 9.45 Down Passenger. In the 1950 timetable this was scheduled to leave Highbridge (next block post west on the main line) at 9.55, 5 minutes before the booked arrival time of 43218 with its train from Bridgwater at 10.00. The Norman Lockett photograph poses a bit of an operating conundrum, because 43218 must have run round its train before the 9.45 was accepted from Highbridge. Perhaps by 1952 the Bridgwater train had been retimed for an earlier arrival, but in 1950 arrangements had to be made to get it stowed out of the way before the 9.45 left Highbridge, which suggests to me that it was worked directly into the bay via 19 points.

Both the Bridgwater Railway and the S&D main line between Glastonbury and Highbridge were the haunt of mixed trains from 1930 or earlier, and I suggest that provision for attaching goods vehicles standing in Edington's Up Siding to passenger trains going on to Bridgwater may have had a bearing on the signalling arrangements. This might, for example, account for 20 bolting 25 points both normal and reverse on the 1930 diagram.

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LesGros
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Re: Catch Points

Postby LesGros » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:31 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:For the requirements then driver's reminiscences and PWI interpretation give a rough guide, but you can read the real documentation on line.
To save the googling I have attached two of them here ...


Thank you Keith,
Interesting historical documents. :thumb
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Catch Points

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:09 pm

John Palmer wrote:I'm sorry I am unable to assist further with additional diagrams and/or locking tables. My information is derived from Chris Osment's article on Bridgwater Railway signalling, which is available for all to read at http://trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sdjr/bw-branch.pdf. None of us is immune from making mistakes, but Chris has always come across as a meticulous researcher, and I would be surprised to discover that what he has set down is in error.

Thanks, that gives more diagrams but no locking tables, just his mention of some features of them. Suppose its the best we can do.

Reference to Chris' article indicates that for a time 16 and 26 points were fitted with/worked by Black's Economical FPLs, and I suggest that the symbology of the 1948 diagram may reflect this so far as 26 points are concerned.

I can't find this anywhere in the article. The Black's design was a Midland specialty so no reason why the S&D would not have tried it.
Showing a locking/fouling bar without showing the bolt would not be a usual way to show this but you never know. The article does mention the provision of a track circuit through the points that would explain the absence of locking bars on other fpls.
Rgds

Alan Turner
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Alan Turner » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:46 pm

If you look at the 1930 plan rather than the 1948 plan you will see that 25 had a FPL operated by 20. Was it actually removed in 1948 (and why?) or is this a mistake on the plan?

regards

Alan

John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:43 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
John Palmer wrote:Reference to Chris' article indicates that for a time 16 and 26 points were fitted with/worked by Black's Economical FPLs, and I suggest that the symbology of the 1948 diagram may reflect this so far as 26 points are concerned.

I can't find this anywhere in the article. The Black's design was a Midland specialty so no reason why the S&D would not have tried it.
Showing a locking/fouling bar without showing the bolt would not be a usual way to show this but you never know. The article does mention the provision of a track circuit through the points that would explain the absence of locking bars on other fpls.

The 1930 diagram is annotated with a reference to 'BLACK'S FPL' on 16 and 26, but, as you say, there's no reference to them in the article itself that I can find. The great majority of original drawings relating to S&D signalling that I have seen emanated from the Southern's Signal Engineer's office at Wimbledon, which reflects the division of responsibilities between the Joint line's owning companies. The Southern seems to have been content to press into service on the S&D any item of signalling equipment that came conveniently to hand - hence, to name but a few, you can identify the products of Stevens, Evans O'Donnell and Duttons at various locations on the S&D network. Perhaps this accounts for the resort to Black's locks, which were used elsewhere on the Southern and, indeed, on the S&D, there having been two such fitted to switches on the Wells Loop at Glastonbury for a time.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Catch Points

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:20 pm

Sorry, I didn't look at that diagram closely and, of course, a word search doesn't find that.
That certainly suggests that the one on 26 may have remained in use. and the use on 16 certainly suggests use of the siding by passenger trains at some time.
Rgds

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:00 am

Anyway getting back to the question in hand.

Noel. Am I right in thinking that because the catch points are controlled by the Box they would not have hand operating leavers attached to them as well {due to them being tied in with the interlocking of the signaling}?

Andrew. You mention about trains being able to depart from the Down platform in the Up direction. Passenger trains from the Bridgwater Branch would arrive into the Down platform then the loco would run round it's train {ECS} then shunt back {either down the Up line or Bridgwater Branch} and then propel into the Bay platform. The it would depart as a service train to Bridgewater. I think it was the Railway Inspectors weren't happy about trains going straight into the bay when the branch was opened.

All Best

Dave

andrewnummelin
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Re: Catch Points

Postby andrewnummelin » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:10 am

Serjt-Dave wrote:Anyway getting back to the question in hand.

...

Andrew. You mention about trains being able to depart from the Down platform in the Up direction. Passenger trains from the Bridgwater Branch would arrive into the Down platform then the loco would run round it's train {ECS} then shunt back {either down the Up line or Bridgwater Branch} and then propel into the Bay platform. The it would depart as a service train to Bridgewater. I think it was the Railway Inspectors weren't happy about trains going straight into the bay when the branch was opened.

All Best

Dave

Interesting. Was there something unusual here as I'm thought that branch trains running into bay platforms to terminate was quite common?
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Catch Points

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:23 am

Serjt-Dave wrote:Noel. Am I right in thinking that because the catch points are controlled by the Box they would not have hand operating leavers attached to them as well {due to them being tied in with the interlocking of the signaling}?
Dave

Yes you are right, no hand levers on interlocked trap points. Note that operationally these are trap points whatever the P-Way department might have called them.
Rgds

John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:09 am

andrewnummelin wrote:
Serjt-Dave wrote:Anyway getting back to the question in hand.

...

Andrew. You mention about trains being able to depart from the Down platform in the Up direction. Passenger trains from the Bridgwater Branch would arrive into the Down platform then the loco would run round it's train {ECS} then shunt back {either down the Up line or Bridgwater Branch} and then propel into the Bay platform. The it would depart as a service train to Bridgewater. I think it was the Railway Inspectors weren't happy about trains going straight into the bay when the branch was opened.

All Best

Dave

Interesting. Was there something unusual here as I'm thought that branch trains running into bay platforms to terminate was quite common?

I also find this interesting - do you have a source for this working practice, Dave?

I referred earlier to the 9.45 Down Passenger (1950 timetable), due Edington 10.07. The Lockett photographs mentioned before show this and also the 9.42 ex Bridgwater following arrival at Edington (due there at 10.00). If the Edington signalman accepts the 9.42 and sets the road for it into the Down platform, regulations for single line working don't permit him to accept the 9.45 when Highbridge offers it at about 9.55. The 9.42 becomes the 10.10 departure Edington-Bridgwater (the connection with the 9.45 provides a circuitous way of going from Highbridge to Bridgwater, instead of direct via the B&E!), so some means have to be found of getting the train into the bay with the engine at the Bridgwater end in time for that departure. Whether the Bridgwater train runs into the Down platform or the bay I don't see how this can be done whilst the 9.45 is in section between Highbridge and Edington, so any further details you have of the operational practices adopted would be enlightening.

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Noel
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Noel » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:35 am

andrewnummelin wrote:Interesting. Was there something unusual here as I'm thought that branch trains running into bay platforms to terminate was quite common?


It was fairly common, but it was also quite common, especially at larger stations, to find bays that were not accessible to arriving trains and, therefore, only capable of being used for departures. I would think that the reasons would have varied for individual locations, and at different times, but possible reasons might be:

safety - is the line on a down gradient? Will it be clear to the driver that he is running into a bay and will have to stop sooner?
inertia - track layouts may have been designed in the days before continuous brakes and never changed thereafter.
operational - running into a bay requires a more cautious approach from the driver, taking extra time, which may cause problems at a busy station.
customer convenience - bays tend to be towards the ends of stations; dropping arriving customers near the exit, the footbridge and station facilities for use while they are waiting for the next train may be preferable.

Serjt-Dave wrote:I think it was the Railway Inspectors weren't happy about trains going straight into the bay when the branch was opened.


The article by Chris Osment indicates that the BoT Inspector's objection involved departures not arrivals.
Regards
Noel

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Catch Points

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:06 pm

and, in this case the lack of a release crossover and run round facility in the bay.
Rgds

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:25 pm

Hi John and Andrew. Looking through my bits and pieces for Edington Junction, I thought the reference for that working procedure was in this article
bw-branch.pdf
(1.4 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
but it's not mentioned there. So I'm a bit of a loss where saw it. I'll have to plough through my other railway files to see if I can find it there. It does mention the incident about the BOT {Board of Trade, Ha! I thought it stood for the Board of Transport} not happy about passenger trains departing {as Noel says} from the Bay Platform via the Up line onto the Bridgewater Branch.

You'll remember me saying that it's unlikely to find any more images of the Traps at Edington, well here's another two. LOL. The first is another image of the Up siding Trap and the other one is the Trap on the Bridgewater Siding {sorry for the quality of this one as it's taken from a book using my phone. I take it the thing standing next to them is a ground signal? It's hard to make out but I can't see a Disc or would it be a small arm?
Siding goods shed 1930s.jpg
filea.jpg
filea.jpg (88.34 KiB) Viewed 777 times
Sorry for the second image being upside down.





All Best

Dave
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: rotated the photo.

John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:25 pm

Wow, Dave, what a fascinating pair of photographs! So much of interest to be noted from them.

My surmise that the traps were all single tongued is partly borne out by the one visible on the Bridgwater Siding, so now you only need to find a picture showing the Down siding trap – ideally one that also shows the Down Main Home signal and reveals whether it was rail-built or a lattice mast!

A feature to note is that when you are building 19 West points (TR5306 on the Templot drawing) you'll need to extend the check rail towards the switch, and may wish to adjust your Templot drawing accordingly.

As to the query about the objects by the traps, yes, these are both ground signals, and they are of the Stevens drop flap variety. Pictures of these at http://trainweb.org/railwest/images/signal/flap-sdjr-x2.jpg (in this case a slotted example, hence the multiplicity of balance levers whereas only one such lever would have been fitted to each of those at Edington). The S&D must have been one of the last strongholds of these flap signals; at least two survived in use at Highbridge until closure in March 1966.

Another ground signal is visible in the shot of the mixed train coming off the Bridgwater line (probably the 3/55 off Bridgwater), and this must be 8 on the diagram. Doesn't look like a flap signal, so likely to be either a standard Southern disc or a Westinghouse miniature arm.

The mixed train is of interest not only for the respectable number of wagons conveyed but also for the fact that it includes at least two coaches rather than the usual singleton.

I think I have found a source for the practice of working arriving Bridgwater trains into the main platform, in the shape of Will Locke's reminiscences at the end of Jem Harrison's monograph 'The Bridgwater Branch' ( Locomotion Papers No. 132): “When the train arrived at the main line platform a porter shouted 'All Change!' The train was then shunted and set back into the Bridgwater bay.” Will's account also mentions that if late-arriving passengers were seen to dash onto the platform after the train had started the crew would reverse the train back into the bay to pick them up; of such was the service you got on the Dorset.

Under the 1950 timetable at least there was no problem routing arrivals from Bridgwater into the Down Main platform, with the exception of the 9.42 I mentioned earlier. The problem, as I see it, is that you could not have trains converging on Edington simultaneously from Highbridge and Bridgwater unless 19 points were reversed to direct the Bridgwater train towards the bay, the reason being that the junction points (21) lay within the clearing point beyond the Down Home signals. Having accepted a train from either Highbridge or Bridgwater, it would not then be permissible to accept a converging train requiring to use any part of the route lying within the clearing point that was due to be occupied by the train previously accepted. Setting 19 points for the bay would overcome this objection by ensuring that the Bridgwater train could never come into conflict with that from Highbridge.

The further problem you would have with the 9.42 was that of disembarking its passengers and repositioning it in time for its 10.10 departure from Edington. The only way in which I can see this could be done is by drawing it forward direct into the bay to set down its passengers. But that is only permissible if the lock on points 25 West has been retained, as suggested by Chris Osment's article, and it is in order to facilitate workings such as the 9.42 that I think this must have been the case.

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Noel
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:44 pm

John Palmer wrote:The further problem you would have with the 9.42 was that of disembarking its passengers and repositioning it in time for its 10.10 departure from Edington. The only way in which I can see this could be done is by drawing it forward direct into the bay to set down its passengers. But that is only permissible if the lock on points 25 West has been retained, as suggested by Chris Osment's article, and it is in order to facilitate workings such as the 9.42 that I think this must have been the case.


I noted Gordon's reply to my query about nos. 7 & 8, but am inclined to discount it, as it still seems an unnecessary duplication to me. So, on the above assumption, is 7 the signal to permit direct access to the bay? It appears from your comments about clearing points that 4 [which must read to the down platform] can't be cleared after a train has been accepted from Shapwick, and if it's already cleared, then the signalman can't accept the train from Shapwick. So, accept the train from Bridgwater, stop it at 4, which is on, and then clear 7 to permit it to continue to the bay?
Regards
Noel

John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:31 am

Noel wrote:I noted Gordon's reply to my query about nos. 7 & 8, but am inclined to discount it, as it still seems an unnecessary duplication to me. So, on the above assumption, is 7 the signal to permit direct access to the bay? It appears from your comments about clearing points that 4 [which must read to the down platform] can't be cleared after a train has been accepted from Shapwick, and if it's already cleared, then the signalman can't accept the train from Shapwick. So, accept the train from Bridgwater, stop it at 4, which is on, and then clear 7 to permit it to continue to the bay?

The Down Branch Home signal, number 4, protects the Bridgwater line junction. Following the same logic as that for approaching Shapwick trains, once a Down train has been accepted from Highbridge the clearing point for the line on which it is running must remain unobstructed, and for this purpose number 4 must remain at danger until, conventionally, the Highbridge train has passed beyond the connection 4 is protecting or has come to a stand at the Down Main Home signal (2). This further illustrates the problem of dealing with the 9.42 from Bridgwater because, when this train reaches Edington at 10.00, the 9.45 will be in section from Highbridge. The 9.42 cannot be admitted to the Down platform until the 9.45 is at a stand at the Down Main Home. This will be at about 10.07, leaving only 3 minutes to bring the 9.42 into the platform, detrain passengers, then shunt it across to the bay for the 10.10 return working to Bridgwater – clearly not enough time.

Even if the locking table is unavailable it would be instructive to see the lever leads for Edington. I suspect that the lead for 7 would be something like “Shunt by Down Branch Home Signal”, and that it was installed specifically to cater for the need to signal a movement past 4 but to a point short of the junction points 21 that 4 was protecting, i.e. up to 8 but no further. I also suspect that the purpose of 8 was to control a movement over 19 reverse without requiring the train concerned first to move to the rear of 4 and 7, as that would involve blocking back and require the assent of the Bridgwater signalman.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:54 am

Pannier Tank wrote:Have you seen this Templot Video?
http://templot.com/companion/catch_points.php

Just to say that the video has now been replaced with an animated infographic:

http://templot.com/companion/catch_points.php

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:27 am

Hi All. Further on with my track making. Here's an image of one of the Trap Points I've made. It's not finished cosmetically {as with all my track}, as this won't be done until it's installed, wired up and tested etc.

00A Trap Point.jpg


All Best

Dave

John Palmer
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Re: Catch Points

Postby John Palmer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:40 pm

Really good to see in the latest pictures in this and your parallel thread on Edington Jc the great progress you are making with the layout. Forgive me for making a nitpicking observation, but the prototype's check rail on 19 points (shown adjacent to the trap protecting the exit from Bridgwater Siding on your latest photo) should extend further towards the toe end of the points. This is apparent on the Casserley photograph showing these points that you posted on 27 July.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Catch Points

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:00 pm

Hi John, you might be right. I started the check rail as it would have if it were the normal length and extended it to the end of the point. but i didn't check to see if it started further back. Will address this once I've nailed all down. It will be easier to once it's all fixed into place.

All Best

Dave


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