Crossing Vee Jig

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Serjt-Dave
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Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:15 am

Hi All. I was looking for some modular storage items/systems etc when I came across this company, EBMA Hobby {have seen them at shows}. Whilst perusing their website I noticed a tag for P4 track so I went a took a look. They do laser cut sleeper turnout kits {again I've have seen before}. But I noticed they did a laser cut Crossing Vee Jig, well in fact 11 all on one sheet for a tenner.

Here's a link http://ec2-52-56-128-123.eu-west-2.comp ... duct_id=81

As I will be needing some of these sizes and all the help I can get in making crossing vee's, I thought I would get this, but would like to hear any thoughts from you guys on this product.

Dave

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:23 am

They should be OK but I don't really see any advantage over using sleeper strip and a template printout as here. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html
Regards

ralphrobertson
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby ralphrobertson » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:05 pm

Dave, you might want to take a look at my thread here https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5499 which gives a little bit of information about why these things came into existence. Andy of EBMA is in our club and he took on these designs so that others can use them too. They work for me and I hope that they work for you too.

Ralph

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steamraiser
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby steamraiser » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:25 pm

I make mine using wide coffee / tea stirrers.
Very useful when assembling V's.

Gordon A

bobwallison
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby bobwallison » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:48 am

Dave,
I have the EBMA jig and use it all the time. It is 1.5mm thick and comes with vee-shaped wedges that are a snug fit in the vee-shaped openings. You use the wedge to hold the rails in the right position both lengthways and vertically while wielding the soldering iron with the other hand, which is very convenient. I also find it helpful to have such a wide range of vee angles in one small, neat package.

On the other hand, Keith's method looks great for non-standard vees, or if you only need a few of the standard angles.

Regards,
Bob

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:36 pm

Hi Guys, thanks for the feedback.

As I'm totally shite with this sort of thing {and a bit fick as well} I need as much help and assistance in making point Vees, switch blades and track in general. So having a jig that will cover 6 out of the 9 points I require {for the scenic side of the layout} and no doubt the ones required for the fiddle yard will be a great help. The other three points {1 x 1:7.75 and 2 x 1:10} will be done using Keith's idea and some stairy sticks, by then I should be {I hope} more experience in making vee's etc and able to tackle them.

Ralph. You say the chap who runs EBMA is in your club. Could you ask him if he's able to make a jig for making a 60' tack panel please. I noticed you had something like that in your thread.

All Best

Dave

ralphrobertson
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:13 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:You say the chap who runs EBMA is in your club. Could you ask him if he's able to make a jig for making a 60' tack panel please. I noticed you had something like that in your thread.


Yes, I will ask him and see if he can do it. I drew the design up some time ago and made it in card on our laser cutter, it certainly is handy for spacing the sleepers and it would work if you use ply and rivet or plastic sleepers with functional chairs.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:49 pm

Thanks Ralph, much appreciated.

Dave

Andy G
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Andy G » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:39 pm

Hi Dave,
Ralph flagged this thread up to me. I've dug through the drawings I've not had chance to action yet and have found Ralph's for the track jig, so will see what I can produce with it. Hopefully I may get something done over the weekend but producing sleepers for Jeremy will have to take priority as he's been waiting a while for them.

Andy
EBMA Hobby & Craft

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:07 pm

Thanks Andy, as and when you can not a rush.

Dave

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Steve Carter
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Steve Carter » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:26 am

Andy G wrote:Hi Dave,
Ralph flagged this thread up to me. I've dug through the drawings I've not had chance to action yet and have found Ralph's for the track jig, so will see what I can produce with it. Hopefully I may get something done over the weekend but producing sleepers for Jeremy will have to take priority as he's been waiting a while for them.

Andy
EBMA Hobby & Craft


Possible new product Andy? :thumb
Steve Carter

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:38 am

The attached pdf shows a track panel jig I drew up and which Brian Lewis laser cut for me. Two were trimmed and joined on a piece of 6mm ply to provide the jig to make up the plain track on the extension for London Road. It's now in the hands of Tony Montgomery for building track on his Ambergate layout.

Designed to be "universal", Brian didn't put it into production but the design has been used by at least one other S4 member.

LNWR track panel jig v2.pdf
(30.56 KiB) Downloaded 205 times

mikedee
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby mikedee » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:23 am

have just ordered one for that price it is worth ago

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:25 pm

Well I made my first crossing Vee and used the EMBA jig. I think it came out quite well even if I do say so myself.
A Vee.jpg


I only wish they made jigs for the rest of the point. LOL. I hope to have my test point finished today.

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steamraiser
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby steamraiser » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:33 pm

There are jigs for the point blades as well.

Gordon A

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:07 pm

Yeah I know, I just wish there were jigs for the bits that don't have jigs. Just about finished the one I'm building just got to fit the switch blades.

Dave

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steve howe
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby steve howe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:11 pm

Useful for assembling the components once filed, but not so good for filing which is the tricky bit!

Steve

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Paul Townsend » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:20 pm

Templotters can end up needing theoretically to make common crossing vees to values intermediate to the EBMA type jigs and commercial templates.

Martin's magic engine tells me that I have Vees to build soon in BH rail to these specs 1:x where x = 4.53, 5.08, 5.5, 5.58, 5.6, 5.7, 6.16, 6.25, 6.38 as well as the common values, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 etc

My method using a 1970s P4 Socy design doesn't allow for funny values of finer calibrated resolution than .5 and guesses to around .25.
The Norgrove method is similar in a convenient size.

In theory one could make a custom jig a la Norgrove but to get .01 resolution it would need to be huge!!!

In practice the accuracy of assembly in my world does not run to the second decimal and on the first decimal there will be a practical tolerance, probably +/- 0.2 or more.

It seems to me that one should do the best one can and accept that it won't be perfect.

Has any info been published about the tolerance on these values?

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm

IMHO you are overthinking it, making a jig my way on the actual template will be accurate enough.
Rgds

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Noel
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Noel » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:38 pm

Paul Townsend wrote:Martin's magic engine tells me that I have Vees to build soon in BH rail to these specs 1:x where x = 4.53, 5.08, 5.5, 5.58, 5.6, 5.7, 6.16, 6.25, 6.38 as well as the common values, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 etc


I have recently acquired a copy of "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice", which I have read but not really got to grips with yet [it's not exactly an easy read :D]. However, it seems to say that the big railway used standard "V"s wherever possible and moved the other components as necessary...
Regards
Noel

bobwallison
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby bobwallison » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:34 pm

I agree with Keith about overthinking angles to 0.01 accuracy. In any case, apart from main lines, the prototype featured some real horror-shows when a standard crossing was shoe-horned into a location where it didn't quite match the required geometry.

As for the difficulty of filing the rails for crossing vees, I clamp a length of 2mm square brass bar in the jaws of the vice at the required angle and hold the rail on that while filing. Bullhead rail is about 1.9mm deep so it is a lovely sliding fit in the jaws. To set the bar, cut a small wedge of card to the crossing angle, rest it on top of the bar and adjust until the top of the card is flush with the top of the jaws.

Regards,
Bob

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steve howe
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby steve howe » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:43 pm

Very elegant method Bob :thumb

….or you could try Baron von Harrap's way, which ruffles feathers but works a treat!
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page/2/

Steve

John Palmer
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby John Palmer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:17 pm

Noel wrote:
Paul Townsend wrote:Martin's magic engine tells me that I have Vees to build soon in BH rail to these specs 1:x where x = 4.53, 5.08, 5.5, 5.58, 5.6, 5.7, 6.16, 6.25, 6.38 as well as the common values, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 etc


I have recently acquired a copy of "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice", which I have read but not really got to grips with yet [it's not exactly an easy read :D]. However, it seems to say that the big railway used standard "V"s wherever possible and moved the other components as necessary...

I agree. When laying a tandem out in Templot I find that 'non-standard' crossing angles are most frequently encountered at the nearest common crossing to the switches. Even so, it's funny how often that angle is close to 1 to 5, 5.25 or 5.5, so I tend to adopt one of those values and adjust the rest of the formation accordingly.

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Re6/6
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Re6/6 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:14 pm

steve howe wrote:Very elegant method Bob :thumb

….or you could try Baron von Harrap's way, which ruffles feathers but works a treat!
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page/2/

Steve


Indeed Steve! I've used the method successfully a few times.

If I remember correctly Brian told me that it was a method taught to him by his father. so I suppose that there's nothing new in our hobby!
John

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Crossing Vee Jig

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:10 pm

Noel wrote:
Paul Townsend wrote:Martin's magic engine tells me that I have Vees to build soon in BH rail to these specs 1:x where x = 4.53, 5.08, 5.5, 5.58, 5.6, 5.7, 6.16, 6.25, 6.38 as well as the common values, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 etc


I have recently acquired a copy of "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice", which I have read but not really got to grips with yet [it's not exactly an easy read :D]. However, it seems to say that the big railway used standard "V"s wherever possible and moved the other components as necessary...


The traditional pre-grouping design method was to calculate such non-standard crossing angles, based on the ruling radius in each road. And then leave it to the gang on site to make the nearest available components fit, using a big hammer. That's the default method for the auto functions in Templot.

About the 1950s, design offices adopted less agricultural methods. Each crossing was moved a fraction to match the standard sizes available. The length and radius of each leg between the crossings was then re-calculated.

You can do that in Templot if you wish, with a lot of trial and error. That's why Templot stops in the middle of the tandem process to let you adjust the created turnout (use F9 rather than F5 to change the crossing angle, use SHIFT+F11 to adjust the lead length/radius).

But there are a couple of things to bear in mind:

1. if you want to follow prototype practice exactly in this way, it makes sense only if you change to CLM unit angles instead of the Templot default RAM angles.

2. if the V-crossings are curviform-pattern, which is generally the case for the middle crossing in a tandem, the angle applies only at the actual nose of the crossing. With the vee rails curving away from each other, the angle between them is changing, so there is little to be gained in getting an exact angle to start from. The nearest standard angle will do. It's back to the big hammer.

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...


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