Turnout construction - Question here please.

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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RobM
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby RobM » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:20 pm

RobM wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:This is potentially one of those Ping moments as the saw blade breaks through.


I put a good blob of blu tack on the 'loose' end of whatever bits I'm cutting through so if they do ping the chances of finding the other half are greatly enhanced even on carpet.

Very informative write up Tony, teaching me a thing or two and more......
+1.... :thumb
Rob
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:22 pm

Thanks for the encouraging feedback to what I have done so far.
What I find interesting is that the questions thread has had more views than the subject thread itself :!:
Tony.

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kelly
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby kelly » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Thanks for the encouraging feedback to what I have done so far.
What I find interesting is that the questions thread has had more views than the subject thread itself :!:
Tony.



That might be because the building thread is still ongoing and some might be paying more attention here until it is finished (when you do, possibly advisable to ask a mod to lock it to keep it as intended and a useful reference).
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:24 am

kelly wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:Thanks for the encouraging feedback to what I have done so far.
What I find interesting is that the questions thread has had more views than the subject thread itself :!:
Tony.



That might be because the building thread is still ongoing and some might be paying more attention here until it is finished (when you do, possibly advisable to ask a mod to lock it to keep it as intended and a useful reference).

Interesting observation.
I don't think I shall consider it truly finished for a while yet as it is likely to grow a bit like Topsy. There will undoubtedly be things I see that require the odd edit as well.
I don't suppose it is possible to lock a thread so that only the originator and the moderator can alter it.

Regards
Tony.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:09 am

When finished and locked as a reference is there a category for it to be placed under making it obvious and easy to find? Might almost be a digest up date category?
Tim Lee

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:20 am

Tony,

the "adapted" slide chairs look good. Have you considered getting your own castings done for those to save time?

Jol

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:25 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:When finished and locked as a reference is there a category for it to be placed under making it obvious and easy to find? Might almost be a digest up date category?

What is wrong with "Track and Turnouts" as a category?
The alternative would be to have a Wiki for such things.
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Tony,

the "adapted" slide chairs look good. Have you considered getting your own castings done for those to save time?

Jol

Hi Jol.
It is problematic enough getting hold of large quantities of what already exists. Nice idea though.
You would probably still have to give them a quick clean up before fitting anyway.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:When finished and locked as a reference is there a category for it to be placed under making it obvious and easy to find? Might almost be a digest up date category?

Hi Tim.
The digest option is appealing, particularly now that it is distributed in digital format. I currently have the original text of the articles I did for those as published with a view to doing an update. Although the fundamentals are still the same, so much of how I do things has changed since that I rather baulk at the task, in some ways preferring to start from scratch. The on-screen option seemed a more logical approach in view of the ability to profusely illustrate the process using digital cameras, which weren't around then. The digest only gets distributed to members, whereas this is an open forum so my methods are available to any that care to look and where possible adapted to other scales /gauges with, hopefully improved results.
Regards
Tony.

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Lord Colnago » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:10 pm

Hi Tony,

A couple of questions relating to the early part of your thread. Firstly, is your recommended double sided tape relatively low tack? I have experienced problems lifting finished points from double sided tape in the past and have used pritt stick as a far from ideal alternative. Secondly, you mention using a large head rivet and I wonder if the head size is 2.5mm.? I have some, which I bought a very long time ago and it would be good to use them up, even if only a few at a time.
The second best priest

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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Your thread has kicked me back into making the tandem for Gt Jackson St, thanks Tony. There are certainly some new ideas here and I have to say I have never seen the punch and rivet tool before, it is a far better design than the individual tool item I have where you always have to keep changing the tools, if only I could get one of those ones!

The Exactoscale crossing vee jig is neat too and I have never seen that before. I thought about etching a replacement and making it available via the Palatine website but I will probably get hammered on copyright. As an alternative I set to on the laser cutter and produced the jig below which is nothing new just making a collection of the usual type of jig people use into one useful set which also includes the half a degree ratios too - well it's easy to draw that at the same time. It goes from 1 in 4 right up to 1 in 9. I made a small error on the 1 in 6 but that has now been changed.

20180214_104718_resized.jpg


I have actually used it for making a 1 in 8 vee as you can see.

20180214_141619_resized.jpg


I have passed the drawing over to Andy at EBMA who is probably going to make this available as part of his range if anyone wants it. http://www.ebma-solutions.co.uk/ - watch his website for details.

Thanks for your thread Tony, it is most useful.

Ralph

ralphrobertson
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:49 pm

Meant to say that in use you simply snip a bit of the end of the vee insert to give you space for the soldering iron.

Ralph

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:01 pm

Lord Colnago wrote:Hi Tony,

A couple of questions relating to the early part of your thread. Firstly, is your recommended double sided tape relatively low tack? I have experienced problems lifting finished points from double sided tape in the past and have used pritt stick as a far from ideal alternative. Secondly, you mention using a large head rivet and I wonder if the head size is 2.5mm.? I have some, which I bought a very long time ago and it would be good to use them up, even if only a few at a time.


They stock a normal tack tape, which is what I use and an extra strong type as well. Not suitable for this job as I would like to be able to remove the track afterwards. I find the best way is to take the whole plan off the board, (which is why I only stick down the corners), turn the whole lot upside down, fold a corner over and peel the paper back as flat as you can, at 45 degrees to the track.
Yes, the larger rivet heads are 2.5mm dia. The only thing you have to watch is getting them centred under the press tool because of the extra width. I got mine from the EM gauge society at one of their shows. I have 3 packs and am still using the first one up. I have also found them useful under the check rails on curves as they are wide enough to support both rails simultaneously. See my Brimsdown thread under Layouts, which has got temporarily delayed.
Regards
Tony.

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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:41 pm

ralphrobertson wrote:The Exactoscale crossing vee jig is neat too and I have never seen that before. I thought about etching a replacement and making it available via the Palatine website but I will probably get hammered on copyright.
Ralph


Hi Ralph.
That vee jig was only available for a relatively short time unfortunately. In fact I spoke to Len Newman about it several times and eventually remembered to take my sample with me to show him. On seeing it he exclaimed "Oh, it does exist!" I think he must have completely forgotten about it since doing the artwork. It was shortly after this that they sold the business to C&L and the design disappeared from view along with all the other etched stuff they did.

I have never been sure where one stands re copyright, is it the idea or the design that is copyright? The idea has been around for years previously as I saw something similar built from scratch in Brass many years earlier. I would have thought that if you could prove that you had generated new artwork with design differences you would be OK, but I am no expert. I am sure someone will enlighten us. The design as it stands does have a major weakness as the corners need some sort of reinforcement. Some of the half etch fold lines for the corners have broken off due to flexure in use and I have had to use solder to strengthen them. Not easy as the solder is reluctant to take to the stainless steel even with Phosphoric acid flux.
Regards
Tony.

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kelly
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby kelly » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:26 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
ralphrobertson wrote:The Exactoscale crossing vee jig is neat too and I have never seen that before. I thought about etching a replacement and making it available via the Palatine website but I will probably get hammered on copyright.
Ralph


Hi Ralph.
That vee jig was only available for a relatively short time unfortunately. In fact I spoke to Len Newman about it several times and eventually remembered to take my sample with me to show him. On seeing it he exclaimed "Oh, it does exist!" I think he must have completely forgotten about it since doing the artwork. It was shortly after this that they sold the business to C&L and the design disappeared from view along with all the other etched stuff they did.

I have never been sure where one stands re copyright, is it the idea or the design that is copyright? The idea has been around for years previously as I saw something similar built from scratch in Brass many years earlier. I would have thought that if you could prove that you had generated new artwork with design differences you would be OK, but I am no expert. I am sure someone will enlighten us. The design as it stands does have a major weakness as the corners need some sort of reinforcement. Some of the half etch fold lines for the corners have broken off due to flexure in use and I have had to use solder to strengthen them. Not easy as the solder is reluctant to take to the stainless steel even with Phosphoric acid flux.
Regards
Tony.


Usually iirc the design is covered by copyright rather than the idea, certainly in UK copyright law. It varies from country to country however, for instance some aspects of software design are covered by copyright in the US, but not elsewhere to the same extent (this is why you license software rather than buy it, as otherwise it'd be assigning copyright to you).

The following is from The UK Copyright Service:

Copyright arises when an individual or organisation creates a work, and applies to a work if it is regarded as original, and exhibits a degree of labour, skill or judgement.

Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather than the idea behind the creation. For example, your idea for a book would not itself be protected, but the actual content of a book you write would be. In other words, someone else is still entitled to write their own book around the same idea, provided they do not directly copy or adapt yours to do so.
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:10 am

kelly wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
ralphrobertson wrote:The Exactoscale crossing vee jig is neat too and I have never seen that before. I thought about etching a replacement and making it available via the Palatine website but I will probably get hammered on copyright.
Ralph


Hi Ralph.
That vee jig was only available for a relatively short time unfortunately. In fact I spoke to Len Newman about it several times and eventually remembered to take my sample with me to show him. On seeing it he exclaimed "Oh, it does exist!" I think he must have completely forgotten about it since doing the artwork. It was shortly after this that they sold the business to C&L and the design disappeared from view along with all the other etched stuff they did.

I have never been sure where one stands re copyright, is it the idea or the design that is copyright? The idea has been around for years previously as I saw something similar built from scratch in Brass many years earlier. I would have thought that if you could prove that you had generated new artwork with design differences you would be OK, but I am no expert. I am sure someone will enlighten us. The design as it stands does have a major weakness as the corners need some sort of reinforcement. Some of the half etch fold lines for the corners have broken off due to flexure in use and I have had to use solder to strengthen them. Not easy as the solder is reluctant to take to the stainless steel even with Phosphoric acid flux.
Regards
Tony.


Usually iirc the design is covered by copyright rather than the idea, certainly in UK copyright law. It varies from country to country however, for instance some aspects of software design are covered by copyright in the US, but not elsewhere to the same extent (this is why you license software rather than buy it, as otherwise it'd be assigning copyright to you).

The following is from The UK Copyright Service:

Copyright arises when an individual or organisation creates a work, and applies to a work if it is regarded as original, and exhibits a degree of labour, skill or judgement.

Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather than the idea behind the creation. For example, your idea for a book would not itself be protected, but the actual content of a book you write would be. In other words, someone else is still entitled to write their own book around the same idea, provided they do not directly copy or adapt yours to do so.


Hi Kelly.
Thanks for the clarification.
So a new version designed from scratch with improvements would appear to be quite legitimate.
Regards
Tony.

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kelly
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby kelly » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:
kelly wrote:
Tony Wilkins wrote:
ralphrobertson wrote:The Exactoscale crossing vee jig is neat too and I have never seen that before. I thought about etching a replacement and making it available via the Palatine website but I will probably get hammered on copyright.
Ralph


Hi Ralph.
That vee jig was only available for a relatively short time unfortunately. In fact I spoke to Len Newman about it several times and eventually remembered to take my sample with me to show him. On seeing it he exclaimed "Oh, it does exist!" I think he must have completely forgotten about it since doing the artwork. It was shortly after this that they sold the business to C&L and the design disappeared from view along with all the other etched stuff they did.

I have never been sure where one stands re copyright, is it the idea or the design that is copyright? The idea has been around for years previously as I saw something similar built from scratch in Brass many years earlier. I would have thought that if you could prove that you had generated new artwork with design differences you would be OK, but I am no expert. I am sure someone will enlighten us. The design as it stands does have a major weakness as the corners need some sort of reinforcement. Some of the half etch fold lines for the corners have broken off due to flexure in use and I have had to use solder to strengthen them. Not easy as the solder is reluctant to take to the stainless steel even with Phosphoric acid flux.
Regards
Tony.


Usually iirc the design is covered by copyright rather than the idea, certainly in UK copyright law. It varies from country to country however, for instance some aspects of software design are covered by copyright in the US, but not elsewhere to the same extent (this is why you license software rather than buy it, as otherwise it'd be assigning copyright to you).

The following is from The UK Copyright Service:

Copyright arises when an individual or organisation creates a work, and applies to a work if it is regarded as original, and exhibits a degree of labour, skill or judgement.

Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather than the idea behind the creation. For example, your idea for a book would not itself be protected, but the actual content of a book you write would be. In other words, someone else is still entitled to write their own book around the same idea, provided they do not directly copy or adapt yours to do so.


Hi Kelly.
Thanks for the clarification.
So a new version designed from scratch with improvements would appear to be quite legitimate.
Regards
Tony.


It would seem so. Though I'm no legal expert, but that site would seem to suggest that it would be fine. But would likely advisable for someone thinking about it as a commercial thing to get preliminary legal advice to cover themselves.
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Noel
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:39 pm

Copyright is limited in its application https://www.gov.uk/copyright. It may [or may not, depending on circumstances] protect the drawings you create as part of the design process, but it won't normally protect the design itself. That is protected by Design Right, with different timescales and scope https://www.gov.uk/design-right and, optionally, by registration https://www.gov.uk/register-a-design. All are potentially rather complex in their operation [and that's as far as my knowledge goes...] As Kelly says, competent legal advice from a specialist in the area is a good idea.
Regards
Noel

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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby ralphrobertson » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:48 pm

Thanks for all your comments regarding copyright. I am not likely to do an etch for this, for what I need the laser cut version is perfectly adequate.

Ralph

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:19 pm

Given this is an Exactoscale product that even Len assumed non-existent, who would you expect to sue for breach of copyright?
A quick word with 2 or 3 people should easily clear it.
However, it's so simple to make a jig with two bits of stripwood, eg sleepers, whenever needed, that it was probably a very poor seller and would likely stay that way. Some things are useful, others a waste of effort.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html Very first picture!
Regards

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:06 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Given this is an Exactoscale product that even Len assumed non-existent, who would you expect to sue for breach of copyright?
A quick word with 2 or 3 people should easily clear it.
However, it's so simple to make a jig with two bits of stripwood, eg sleepers, whenever needed, that it was probably a very poor seller and would likely stay that way. Some things are useful, others a waste of effort.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html Very first picture!
Regards

That is the way I used to do it but with strips of artist mounting card stuck on a block of chipboard.
That little etch is just so much more convenient to have in ones tool box. It just seems a shame that the artwork is there and is not being used. I for one would like to have a second one as a spare.
The other question of course is just how many crossing vees is the average modeller likely to want to make in his lifetime anyway?
Regards
Tony.

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Colin Parks
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:10 am

Hi Tony,

Your posts on switch blades have been highly instructive to me, so thanks very much for sharing your knowledge. Re. crossing vees and how many the the 'average modeller' would make, it could be that you alone account for a large proportion of the common crossings produced in any given year!

All the best,

Colin (eight vees and counting...)

Andy G
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Andy G » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:48 pm

As Ralph mentioned he has handed the design of the crossing vee jig over to me and I have now done a small run of these and they are available on the EBMA Hobby & Craft website. http://www.ebmahobby.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=65&product_id=81

Julian Roberts
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:26 am

Tony, first thanks again for this series. It is noticeable how much useful information can be put into one page when it is uninterrupted compared with most threads especially where the post being replied to is quoted in its entirety.

Do I understand correctly that on the switchblades, you say the horizontal profile is a straight line from the tip to the stockgauge, the full length of the planing, rising from the 0.25mm below rail level at the tip? No doubt many of us could fill this thread with our misperceptions, I could write quite a lot about things I'd misunderstood. But this one I think worth putting here - my experience with switches is that if the blades are less than full height after a certain point of their length, a wheel can tend not to take the direction of the switch, particularly the diverging route. However at the tip (as you have shown) it does need to be below rail level or there will be gauge narrowing, as (surely?) it's not possible to file rail to less than about 0.2 thickness, which on a B switch will be approx 7mm from the tip - so my horizontal taper has been from there to the tip, made naturally by the filing.

At your half way point, say 15mm, the rail top is theoretically c.0.1mm below the stock rail if I get you right. Clearly these are almost just numbers but I would be worried about any encouragement of our P4 wheels not to take the right course.

Going to the crossing, while your knuckle is directly on a timber I have seen turnouts where the knuckle is between two timbers, and this is the case on Martin Wynne's post of a Templot crossing in your Brimsdown thread.

2_061034_030000000.png
2_061034_030000000.png (7.96 KiB) Viewed 2609 times


If the knuckle is between two timbers it would be much easier to see the place where the bend should be once the timbers are stuck down onto the template.

Prototype practice varied, I take it? I must say I would be happier (with my third hand) to use a ruler to be sure to exactly align the running route of first knuckle/wing rail with the V as well as using the drawing, as (maybe it's my eyesight) I would not be sure I had the exact vertical perspective.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:14 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:If the knuckle is between two timbers it would be much easier to see the place where the bend should be once the timbers are stuck down onto the template. Prototype practice varied, I take it?

Hi Julian,

The distance from the vee to the knuckle varies with the crossing angle, but the spacing of the timbers is usually constant, or close to it. For these REA crossings, the spacing is constant at 2ft-6in (10mm scale) centres.

This means that for sizes up to about 1:7 in P4 the centre of the knuckle is clear of the "X" timber. At flatter angles up to 1:11.5 the centre of the knuckle is over the timber. For 1:12 and over the centre of the knuckle is on the far side of the timber.

For S4 the knuckle is closer to the vee. For 00 and EM the knuckle is much further from the vee. This is because of the differing flangeway gaps.

A P4 turnout cannot be an exact scale model of a prototype turnout for this reason. For that you need to use S4.

regards,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...


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