C&L Flexitrack

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
goatdriver

C&L Flexitrack

Postby goatdriver » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:16 pm

I'm building my first P4 layout, and I've only previously built layouts using Hornby or Peco sectional HO track. Never having hand laid track, I'm considering using C&L flexitrack and turnout kits, at least for the initial parts of the layout. I'm modeling the modern era, so I plan to model flat bottom rail and concrete sleepers. I'd appreciate comments/suggestions on my plans. Also, are C&L's turnout kits compatible with either their thick or thin sleeper flat bottom flexitrack? Thanks in advance.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:06 pm

I don't think there is a thin sleeper version of flat bottom, or kits for turnouts in flat bottom.
Colin Craig does flat bottom point kits.
Any mismatch in height should be simple to resolve with card packing.
Regards
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Keith
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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:59 pm

Keith is correct. When I worked at C+L until recently we did not produce thin base flexitrack with flat bottom rail in any gauge. Concrete sleeper thick bases were available in the Exactoscale range but we never got round to putting together the jig for assembling flexitrack in P4 as no one had ever requested it in other than OO and EM. We used Peco code 82 rail cat no. IL115 as this was the only type we found which would fit the chairs securely on the thick bases. Be warned when using these bases that the webs between the sleepers need to be cut on one side to achieve any significant degree of curvature and there is no allowance for gauge widening.

Point kits were definitely not available with flat bottom rail and I am not aware of any apart from the Colin Craig range which Keith mentioned.

While we are on the subject, the thin base wooden sleeper P4 flexitrack with bullhead rail frequently came out a fraction undergauge which another correspondent on this forum will confirm. 18.75 - 18.80mm was not uncommon. However I always found the equivalent Exactoscale thick bases to be spot on and there was also a gauge widened version.

Hope that helps

Roy

goatdriver

Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby goatdriver » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:54 pm

Thanks for the info. If I understand correctly, the only way to make flat bottom turnouts is to scratchbuild them on templates. Sounds like I'll be hand laying my track.

Colin Parks

Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:05 pm

Albert Hall mentions Peco code 82 IL115 rail: I found out yesterday that Peco IL115 rail has been discontinued. The helpful person at Peco told me that their code 83 product is a very close match. However, Peco are to continue making Pandrol bases for flat bottom rail. I was also told that not many people make their own track these days.

Colin

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:02 am

There was a rumour about a year ago that IL115/code 82 was going to be discontinued by Peco. We used to buy it in packs of 6 yards because they would not supply it in bulk, which was obviously not very economical for a manufacturer of track. As such we only bought in about 10 packs a month which shows how little demand there was for FB track. I didn't attempt to use code 83 myself so no idea how it compares.

We did have our own code 82 rail but despite the overall dimensions being the same the profile was a bit different resulting in it being too loose in the chairs. We ran out of nickel silver a long while ago but had plenty of steel which was starting to corrode in the damp workshop.

I suppose the only other option is the tried and tested technique of soldering rail to copperclad sleepers.

Roy

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:14 am

goatdriver wrote: If I understand correctly, the only way to make flat bottom turnouts is to scratchbuild them on templates


Not quite. The flat bottom turnout kits from Colin Craig consist of copper clad sleepers cut to length, ready assembled switches and common crossings and all the rails cut to length. There are etched baseplates which go under the rails to space them off the sleepers and cosmetic fixing clips to add later. The principles are the same as for the Exactoscale kits for bull head rail.

I described the construction of one of these kits in Scalefour News 174 which can be found on our website if you do not have a hard copy, and this includes some references to other material about flat bottom track.

Three turnouts using Colin's kits are used on Elcot Road, the "Southern Electric" layout built by my son and myself and there are several people on here who are using them successfully. Time consuming to build certainly and care is needed but the end result is very good.

Terry Bendall

Colin Parks

Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Colin Parks » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:40 am

What Roy says re. using anything other than Peco IL115 code 82 flat bottom rail in C&L bases not working too well is a little concerning.

The person from the Peco Technical Advice Bureau did quote some comparable measurements highlighting small differences between their code 82 and code 83 rail (in a mixture of metric and imperial): the code 83 is 1 thou. higher (i.e. 83 thou. instead of 82 thou.); the code 83 rail head is 0.1 mm narrower; the code 83 rail foot is 0.05 mm narrower, though the Peco person could advise on the compatibility with the code 83 rail and Peco Pandrol fixings, which continue to be supplied.

I have ordered a pack of code 83 rail to test its use with Peco Pandrol fittings. I do not have any C&L track bases or any of their flat bottom rail fixings to test.

Colin

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:08 pm

Albert Hall mentions under gauge track - we found this to be the case with the bullhead thin sleeper C&L flexitrack and it was replaced willingly by Pete Llewellyn - we got Exactoscale Fast Track instead. Suggest it might be a good idea for you to invest in the set of the four C&L gauges for invaluable checking and verification that you are not undergauge, and to apply appropriate widening where and if required whatever the era and style etc. (18.83, +0.1, +0.2, +0.3). Worth bearing in mind that painting the inside face of the rails minutely reduces the gauge if you find any flexitrack a tad over gauge.

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:59 pm

I have had some C&L thin sleepered flexi-track which became significantly under gauge over time on my test track. However, it was not fixed down and just loose on a shelf. After some years this became too troublesome and I replaced it with a new length from a box purchased about seven years ago. This length has been just fine. I have however decided that all the main running lines on the new layout will be Fast Track in both variants, as this is much more robust.

I have a feeling that the mouldings on the later thin sleeper stuff were much better than before. It's also interesting that some very early Fast Track (and I do mean very early, it's the original orange colour) I have was found to have warped slightly when taken from the packets. Unfortunately warped along the length of the sleepers resulting in narrow gauge. I only have a few bases of this age, thank goodness, and I should have used it a long time ago. I'm sure they were OK at the time of purchase. I might try heating them up a bit, but I might just bend them straight carefully with pliers! I did think of UV exposure as a reason, but the bases were kept in original packets in a box. One of those things I guess, because all of the new bases I have are just fine.

Philip

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:54 am

Purely out of curiosity, does anyone have experience of SMP track in P4? How does it compare for dimensional accuracy, sleeper spacing and representation of chairs?
Roy

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:36 pm

I don't have an up to date sample, but I have a piece of track from I guess the 1990's, which would be the second incarnation of SMP Scaleway. I don't think it's changed much since, but I could of course be very wrong here! The overall height of the rail head when the track is on the trackbed is the same as C&L, but the sleepers are thicker (1.13mm as opposed to 0.8mm) so that the height of the rail above sleepers is less. The spacing is closer than normal, at 8.83mm, approx 2'2". Track gauge is quite good, between 18.9mm and 19.05mm, acceptable in my view. The chairs are nice mouldings and seem to hold the rail quite well, although the rail is not inclined inwards as with C&L. I quite like the rail section which is a trifle less sharp edged than some these days. I much preferred the old Kingsway rail, long gone!

I also have a couple of short lengths glued and ballasted to some thick card, which I use as a photographic base sometimes. Here the track gauge has varied a bit more than above, but on this I cut off the webs between sleepers and spaced them out a bit more as it was for display only, so possibly this might account for the variations.

I used quite a bit of Scaleway on my old Taw Vale layout, both earlier and second stage types, and don't recall any problems over many years. However, the layout went to its new home over twenty years ago now so I have no idea how it has fared in that time. I would be quite happy to use it again based on that experience but probably only in hidden areas because of the chair height issue.

Philip

Albert Hall
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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:38 pm

Thanks for that Philip. I used it in EM gauge back in the 1970's when P4 was in its infancy. It seemed like a state of the art product back then but somehow it looked a bit odd connected to copper clad pointwork.
Roy

goatdriver

Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby goatdriver » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:04 pm

I appreciate the discussion in all the posts. I'm leaning towards using Colin Craig's kits for the turnouts, C&L flexitrack for the straight segments and Exactoscale Fastrack as a base for the curves. Comments?

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:21 pm

I think that's fine, except that the C&L track has thin sleepers and the Fast Track full depth, so packing will be required. Fast Track is to my mind a better, more rigid product; better to gauge by all accounts, so my preference would be for that throughout apart from the pointwork.

On my new line I will be using Fast Track with the C&L used in sidings and other less critical situations.

Philip

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:55 am

goatdriver wrote:Comments?

I find the slight undergauging of C+L P4 thin flexitrack is tolerable on straight track but bear in mind it is not available with flat bottom rail. The flat bottom version of flexitrack uses the thicker Fast Track bases. I see that Phil is listing the P4 version on the revised website so maybe he has got round to sorting out the jig.

Roy

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:05 am

I have used the Exactoscale Fast track, both bull head and FB versions and it has been fine, but there have not been any sharp curves to cope with. One small problem with the Fast track bases for bull head rail is that no keys are mounded, simply because at the time it was not possible to do this as part of the moulding process. If you want keyed chairs then you have to use individual sleepers and chairs.

Terry Bendall

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:15 pm

goatdriver wrote:I appreciate the discussion in all the posts. I'm leaning towards using Colin Craig's kits for the turnouts, C&L flexitrack for the straight segments and Exactoscale Fastrack as a base for the curves. Comments?


I didn't say above we got the Fasttrack in normal gauge for straight and gauge widened (+0.2mm) version for curves. No problem curving it for use so far and we have found it gives extremely reliable running - to the extent we are totally relaying the track with it on one curving section that has regularly given trouble, using the widened bases.

Armchair Modeller

Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:36 pm

Apparently, SMP Scaleway is available in FB. No photos on their site though to show what it looks like.

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby SteamAle » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:15 pm

Although I have not built any P4 track yet I have built lots in EM using C&L components. I could never understand why, after I took so much care with the gauge, using lots of both roller and triangular gauges, I would end up being under gauge after ballasting in pointwork.
It took somebody reasonably new to track laying to point out that C&L chairs are designed to hold the rail in at a slight angle, as per prototype. He found that the gauges held the rail vertical but as soon as you removed the gauge the rail crept in to an angle reducing the gauge.
It is not much but even in EM it was the root cause of many problems with running until the venier caliper came out to start checking things.
Is this a problem that has been looked at with P4 track?
Philip

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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:27 am

SteamAle wrote:Is this a problem that has been looked at with P4 track?

Hi Philip,

This is a known issue with inclined rails. It's important that the slots in roller gauges are not deeper than the head of the rail, like this:

Image

If the slots are too deep, you can cure them by winding some copper wire in the bottom of them.

Another issue with inclined rails, is that when curved they tend to straighten up. This feature has sometimes been claimed to give automatic gauge-widening.

The reason for straightening up on curves is that when inclined rail is curved, the head of the rail must follow a larger or smaller radius than the foot of the rail. One or other of the head or foot therefore has to be stretched slightly longer than the other. The heavy prototype chair fixings and comparatively gentle prototype radii manage this unlikely-sounding feat, but there is no way a flimsy plastic chair can do it on a sharp curve. The model rail therefore straightens up to equalize the forces in head and foot. But it's a big assumption that the gauge is going to widen in the process.

regards,

Martin.
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Re: C&L Flexitrack

Postby Albert Hall » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:18 am

Does this also mean that contact between the offside wheel and railhead migrates from the cone to the flange or at least the root of the flange resulting in more frictional drag?
Roy


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