Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:41 pm

JFS wrote:
Colin Parks wrote:Hi Barry,
Getting your own CR supports cast sounds like a good idea and you can then match the castings to the rail section of your choice.


.. of course, getting the correct rail section drawn will be a doddle... I am looking forward to seeing the result!

Best Wishes,


Hi Howard,

I was not thinking of going down that road. I was thinking of exploring the possibility of creating a one piece bronze casting of a SR conductor rail support, incorporating the insulator base, the insulator and the cradle to hold the society's 150lb/yard conductor rail.

It that is going to be too difficult and time consuming I will be forced to follow others and use Peco rail and plastic conductor rail supports.

Regards

Barry

Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:00 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hi Barry,

Like you, I am coming to the conclusion that SR conductor rail was seldom of the heavier type (cf. Russ Elliot's reply, 14 April) and from the pictures I have taken in the last decade, the lighter weight of rail is very much still in use (photo taken at Newhaven Harbour 11 Decemeber 2011):

982 - Copy.JPG

Getting your own CR supports cast sounds like a good idea and you can then match the castings to the rail section of your choice.

If you are intending to instal 900 of these supports, you must be building a layout on an epic scale.

Colin


Hi Colin,

I could not be so bold as to call my model an epic. My double track mainline is only 43 ft long. The model of Barnham station that I am building has a 12 ft long down loop and two 9 ft long emu storage sidings, add this up @ 31 sleepers per ft, divided by 4 sleepers per CR support equals approx 900 conductor rail supports.

Now P4 LMS layout of late Bill Richmond's which featured twice in the Model Railway Journal was an epic model railway layout. He built his layout in a large 40 foot by 60 foot shed. It was fully scenic and consisted of one and a half scale miles of quadruple track featuring Tring cutting and station, plus five scale miles of double main line to Rugby plus a two thirds scale model of the old Euston Station. All Bills track was nickle silver rail soldered to tinned steel rivets pressed into ply sleepers and fully chaired.

I was privileged to run my model trains on this beautiful layout. Where is this layout now ! When Bill Richmond died, his family arranged for it to be packed it away in two 40 foot containers, where it stays to this day, very sad.

On a lighter note, l am waiting for a reply regarding the costing of CR supports cast in bronze.

Regards

Barry

Colin Parks

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:39 am

Ah, you are the one doing Barnham in P4. In that case, I would know you as 'Bazza' from your postings on RMweb! You had made some very nice buffer castings for your EMUs, I seem to remember.

Regards,

Colin

Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:27 am

Colin Parks wrote:Ah, you are the one doing Barnham in P4. In that case, I would know you as 'Bazza' from your postings on RMweb! You had made some very nice buffer castings for your EMUs, I seem to remember.

Regards,

Colin


Hi Colin,

Yep that's me. How are you keeping Colin ? I have taken your advice all those years back, plus what my wife kindly said to me " after 30 years when are you going to finish that b----y model". I am going to try and finish my model of a Brighton Bell emu set. I have already converted it over to DCC and I have now obtained Pullman decals, lining, crests and names or each car. And from a second supplier I have obtained the distinctive Pullman roof vents, table lamps ( not working too expensive) underframe detail, tables and chairs and etched curtains.

Regarding the SR buffer castings that I had made all those years ago, I am contacting the same company to find out the cost of casting conductor rail insulators in bronze for me. I'll let you know how I get on.

Regards

Barry(Bazza)

Colin Parks

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Colin Parks » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Hi Barry,

The Brighton Belle project sounds interesting to say the least. Rather you than me with all the lining out on that Pullman livery. There are still some Hornby BB motor bogie side frame components (original suspension) available here from Peter's Spares if you wanted them: http://www.petersspares.com/hornby-x643 ... e-frame.ir

All the best,

Colin

Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:35 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hi Barry,

The Brighton Belle project sounds interesting to say the least. Rather you than me with all the lining out on that Pullman livery. There are still some Hornby BB motor bogie side frame components (original suspension) available here from Peter's Spares if you wanted them: http://www.petersspares.com/hornby-x643 ... e-frame.ir

All the best,

Colin

Hi Colin,

Thank you about the idea of using Hornby BB bogie spares, the model is still fitted with the same motor bogie when I first built the model. it is also the same type of Triang motor bogie that I had used on my 6-Pan, 4-Cor and 4-Buf emu models. which have stood the test of time and worked very well for me over all these years.

On these 3 emu models I used the old Triang motor bogies with the side frames filed off and replaced with the appropriate emu side frame detail, and on each motor bogie, I replaced the original Triang 3 pole armature with a (M and W, I think) replacement 5 pole armature. Later when converting these motor bogies to work of DCC, all I did was to isolate the brushes from the motor frame and solder the DCC grey and orange leads direst to each carbon brush assembly. They are a very robust and reliable motor bogie when coupled to a 5 pole armature.

For the painting and lining of the Pullman set I am hoping to use a the decal sheets from Precision Labels which consist of the complete brown painted panels, lining, crests and name on one decal sheet for each coach side. Failing that I still have a full set of Pullman lining, crests and name decal sheets from PC/Historical Model Railway Society but that will involve spray painting and masking the cream and brown panels on each carriage first.

The roofs of each coach are made out of balsa wood, so to replicate all the roof rivet detail I have purchased some of the rivet decal sheets by an American company called Micro-Mark. I might seem like rivet counting but it is surprising how much rivet detail there is on each Brighton Belle Pullman car roof.

Gee even to me, this is is starting to sound complicated. Can you see why I have put off completing it all these years.

Hows your model of Newhaven Harbour progressing, are you going to just replace the OO track with P4/S4 track like for like, or completely re-build it ?

Best regards

Barry

Colin Parks

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:12 pm

Hi Barry,

Sounds like you are going to do a thorough job on the Brighton Belle model. The roofs will use up a lot of those rivet decals.

As for Newhaven Harbour, it was sold last year and is being rebuilt by its new owners for further exhibition outings.

A start has been made on a P4 BR(S) third rail layout, which will the use of much of the NH stock. My interest in the CR supports (and rail) that you have been discussing stems from my need for a number of these supports, though nowhere near nine hundred! I have two packs of the S4 Stores' supports, (i.e thirty usable standard height supports), but will have to consider my options soon regarding these particular components. They do seem rather delicate.

All the best,

Colin

BrianW
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby BrianW » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:52 pm

My first post on the forum.
I have just started my P4 plank & wagon, but have tried using Society CR supports on my 00 SR layout (hope I don't get expelled for misuse of Society merchandise).
I too found that gluing the fret to the insulator was weak and inconsistent, so I am using the following method. It's a bit fiddly, very strong, but probably not suitable if you need 900 and wish to retain your sanity.

I solder the fret to 1mm dia brass rods approx 5mm long, drill the insulator and base, thread them onto the rod, then push the assembly into a 1mm hole in sleeper/baseboard. After much trial and error (more of the latter), I adopted the following:

Cut the rod to length, taper the bottom end, tin the top end.
Paint the half etch lines in the fret to stop the solder getting in (or use solder mask).
Apply a dab of flux to the hole in the fret, insert the rod (photo 1)
Press the rod down with soldering iron until flush with the top of the fret (photo 2) apologies for focus
Drill hole in insulator. I found best method (for me) was to sit the insulator in a 1mm hole in a piece of mdf, mark the centre using Mk1 eyeball and needle in a pin chuck (surprisingly easy and accurate). Drill approx 0.6mm (photo 3) then open up to 1mm.
Drill 1mm hole in baseplate (easy).
Assemble onto rod (photo 4), easy to paint base whilst separated on rod.
Push into 1mm hole in sleeper/baseboard (no glue required) then close ears onto CR (photo 5 – test piece on 00 SMP track).

Just starting some Masokits turnout tie bars, compared with those maybe the above isn't that fiddly after all.

Regards

BrianW
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Rod Cameron
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Rod Cameron » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:59 am

Interesting Brian (and welcome).

Funnily enough we were discussing means of making the whole conductor rail thing more robust at our group meeting last night. You've given me food for thought there - some experimentation needed, I may be out for a while (!), but will return if successful!

Balcombe and the viaduct will need approximately 1,250 conductor rail pots, and I need a batch building protocol that will preserve my sanity and once all done be robust enough to withstand handling and occasional mishaps. I think Peco, C&L and the Society pots will all play a part, with the latter possibly being confined to exposed rail in the station area and other places where close photography might be carried out. And in the station area (mostly) there is also the issue of protection boards. There is a plan formulating in my head ...
Rod

Raphael

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Raphael » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Hello [first post]
Very useful. I also joined the Scalefour Society in order to buy 30m of the conductor rail for misuse in other gauges and have been experimenting with various supports in a similar way - so am finding this all very interesting.

At another end of the spectrum I tried a brass nail. I soldering the rail to it and then sloshing some white paint over it. Using a round nail with a flat head which tapers out slightly, with the solder it becomes domed and even lifts the rail to about the right height. I think with a bit more care and some extra cosmetic attention this will work for me in those dim and distant corners. I think something to represent the plate the insulator sits on - small piece of plasticard perhaps? - and something to indicate the clips [which are very hard to spot in photographs] and we'll be there... Certainly very rigid, holds the rail on sharp curves and is also easy to lift out of the hole if the nail isn't glued in so sections of conductor rail can be removable [and therefore could cross baseboard joints].

My quick test piece from a fairly close distance:
Image

Best wishes
Raphael

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Rod Cameron » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:15 am

Hi Raphael, good to see you on here. How is Southerham?
Rod

Raphael

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Raphael » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:18 pm

Thanks both. I've lurked on the forum for many years - lots of useful and inspiring work for any modeller [or someone that likes making and breaking things]. Lots of my methods have been cribbed from here!

Rod, Southerham is now expanded into Lewes East Goods and it has grown a bit. I felt the need to get on with it quietly and haven't illustrated the progress anywhere -sometimes having an audience is counter-productive! But now its nearly past the boring boards and track phase maybe I should.

This thread is actually the most useful I've found for a long time with lots of ideas and solutions to the same problem. I just checked my conductor rails and it says 40m on the packet: So thats even more pots than I was thinking of!

Colin Parks

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:28 pm

Raphael is hiding his light under a bushel re. Southerham. It is now a vast project compared to the original! I have been keeping an eye on the progress here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hardneasy ... 00/detail/

A huge number of CRSs needed indeed...

Colin

Raphael

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Raphael » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks Colin! But best not go too much into that on here!

Although the whole subject of conductor rail supports reminds me I still haven't sorted out the positions of them all. It's quite a job in itself. Even though I have a prototype to follow the compression and short cuts plus the need to avoid joins in the wrong place has meant the planning has been almost as involved as the Templot work on the pointwork.

Have got some diagrams going on showing where the side boards are fitted, how long they are, which side the rail is on, the ramps and also feed lines etc. And then the cable runs to sort... It's endless!

A question that is sort of related is has anyone investigated doing the raised cable trunking as a 3D print? If you have a third rail you need this too...

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Rod Cameron » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:40 pm

While at the RMWeb Taunton day today I tried a quick comparison between Society pots and rail vs. Peco pots and their Code 60 rail. The height is fine but there was a discrepancy in the width of the rail head, the Peco rail looking decidedly undernourished. But in the interests of trying anything, I discovered that the Peco rail will still fit the plastic pots upside down, i.e. with the flat bottom on the top (shock horror). This gives a head width virtually identical to the Society conductor rail head and so gets away from the visual jarring if mixing the two - provided of course you forget about the rail being, er, upside down. It all depends on your particular priorities, but for us needing some 1250 pots it's something I'm seriously considering for 'out in the wilds' areas.

I do however need to check photos in my books to confirm the proportional relationships between the running and conductor rail head widths, especially bearing in mind the usage of different weights of conductor rail as mentioned earlier in this thread, and when and where the different types were used.
Rod

Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Wed May 10, 2017 3:24 am

Colin Parks wrote:Raphael is hiding his light under a bushel re. Southerham. It is now a vast project compared to the original! I have been keeping an eye on the progress here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hardneasy ... 00/detail/

A huge number of CRSs needed indeed...

Colin


Hi Colin,

Wow that is a large model railway, makes my effort seem quite small by comparison. Looks like I could fit my layout inside this layout and it would not touch the sides ! I was good to see another 4-COR emu set like my one running round the layout.

Sorry I have been off line for a short while. I try to cycle 21 kilometres before breakfast five days a week. But early on ANZAC day morning when I decided to bike along one of Napier's wooden boardwalks along side the Pacific Ocean, my front wheel got stick in one of the wooden planks and I ended up over the handle bars. No damage to my bike, but I received bad bruising to my right thigh and I damaged the rotocuff muscle in my right shoulder. Luckily its the law over here to wear a helmet when cycling, so my helmet instead of my head hit the wooden planks when I canned off. So no modelling or cycling for a few weeks.

I have though still been following this discussion, and it would seem that SR modelers are struggling a bit with conductor rail supports. In the past I have tried to replicate the CRS by using small 1 mm glass bead with the conductor rail soldered to a very small brass lace pin which is threaded through the glass bead and glued into the sleeper, not ideal but it can look OK from a distance.

It would also appear from this discussion that the SR mainly used 100 lb/yard or 106 lb/ yard conductor rail, am I right?

As you know I live in New Zealand, so all of my modelling references must come from photos. I've worked out that when using 100 or 106 bl rail the Southern Railway and the Southern Region CRS were higher that the LT ones, so is there any easy way of deciding if the SR conductor rail in a photo is 100, 105 or 150 lb rail or does that also depend if PW is flat bottom or bull head rail ?


Regards

Barry
Last edited by Barry Davis on Thu May 11, 2017 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed May 10, 2017 9:27 am

Barry Davis wrote:It would also appear from this discussion that the SR mainly used 100 bl/yard or 106 bl/ yard conductor rail, am I right?
Barry


maybe the drawing in this post will help.
Regards
Regards
Keith
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Russ Elliott
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Russ Elliott » Wed May 10, 2017 11:34 am

Barry Davis wrote:It would also appear from this discussion that the SR mainly used 100 bl/yard or 106 bl/ yard conductor rail, am I right?

Historically, yes.

I've worked out that when using 100 or 106 bl rail the Southern Railway and the Southern Region CRS were higher that the LT ones, so is there any easy way of deciding if the SR conductor rail in a photo is 100, 105 or 150 bl rail or does that also depend if PW is flat bottom or bull head rail ?

I find it impossible to distinguish between 100lb and 106lb sections, but the chunkier 150lb is usually much easier to identify.

In all cases, the positive rail is 3" (1mm) above the height of the running rail, regardless of the type of conductor rail or running rail.

'Southern Way' did a series of articles on conductor rails, and although I didn't see all of them, I was disappointed. I can't recall seeing any references to dimensions.

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Rod Cameron » Wed May 10, 2017 12:36 pm

Russ Elliott wrote:'Southern Way' did a series of articles on conductor rails, and although I didn't see all of them, I was disappointed. I can't recall seeing any references to dimensions.


That's correct and thanks for the reminder Russ. They were in SW issues 4,5 and 6. Good for pictures of hook switches and general configurations though.
Rod

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Rod Cameron » Wed May 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Further to this, I dug out my old copy of Southern Notebook 76, the magazine of the Southern Railways Group, from 1983. This contained an article written by Eddie Bourne entitled 'The Southern Electric System for Modellers'. There was a postscript article one or two issues later.

It refers to a 138 lb rail as well as the 100, 106 and 150 lb progressions. There is a section ostensibly of the 138 lb rail which shows a height of 4 5/8 in, a base width of 5 1/2 in and a rail head width of 2 3/4 in. However, the postscript refers to correspondence suggesting this is more likely to be the 100 lb rail. The postscript also suggests the 106 lb rail is 4 5/8 in high (widths not given) and the 150 lb rail is 5 1/2 in high (also quoted as 5 7/16 in), base width of 5 1/2 in, and head width of either 3 1/4 or 3 3/4 in (the print is fuzzy at this crucial point).

The JBS Society rail is 1.81 mm high (5 7/16 in equivalent), base width the same, and head width 1.06 mm (3 3/16 in).

Peco Code 60 is 1.58 mm high (4 3/4 in), base width 1.21 mm (3 5/8 in), and head width 0.75 mm (2 1/4 in).

So the Society rail is pretty damn close to the 150 lb dimensions, and suggests the quoted fuzzy figure should be 3 1/4 in. The Peco rail might be passable as 100 lb rail but even then is a bit thin on top. Upside down (see my post above) the base width of the Peco rail used as the head is 0.15 mm wider than the Society rail for representing 150 lb rail.

In 1983 Eddie Bourne recommended Code 70 FB rail imported by Victor's of Islington.
Rod

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed May 10, 2017 2:57 pm

The drawing I linked to above is not at all fuzzy and gives head width of 83 mm, foot width of 140 mm and heights of 117 mm for 106lb and 138 mm for the 150lb. Translated into imperial to the nearest 1/32nd inch these are 3 13/32, 5 3/4, 4 25/32 and 5 21/32 respectively.
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Regards
Keith
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Barry Davis
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Barry Davis » Thu May 11, 2017 3:46 am

Rod Cameron wrote:
Russ Elliott wrote:'Southern Way' did a series of articles on conductor rails, and although I didn't see all of them, I was disappointed. I can't recall seeing any references to dimensions.


That's correct and thanks for the reminder Russ. They were in SW issues 4,5 and 6. Good for pictures of hook switches and general configurations though.


Hi Rod,

Yes SW issues 4,5 and 6 do explain the complexions of SR third rail electrification very well, but I still can not work out even from those photos if it's 106 or 150 lb rail ( for example in SW 5 page 86 what is the size of the rail that the welder is sitting on) I think that it is 106 lb rail based on the assumption that it appears to be a Southern Railway or early BR photo !

But we seem to have gone of track on this thread. I have no complaints about the size or shape of our societies 150 lb conductor rail.

My concern is with the design of the society's CRS, which require the assembly of 3 very tiny separate parts just to make one very small conductor rail support, of which most SR modelers will require hundreds. A lot of good ideas about alternative way of modelling CRS have cropped up in this thread. Hence my initial question in to the possibility of 3D printing or lost wax casting, a one piece conductor rail support for the societies 150 lb rail, similar in design to the one by Peco, whereby the societies conductor rail slides into the CRS and is held by the CRS ,but at the same time is free to move with different temperature changes.

Regards

Barry
Last edited by Barry Davis on Sat May 13, 2017 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu May 11, 2017 3:46 pm

Barry Davis wrote: but I still can not work out even from those photos if it's 106 or 150 lb rail


The CD of information that I mentioned in my contribution a while back does not give specific information on the size of conductor rail only that it should conform to BS 7865. This publication has to be bought from the British Standards Institute although one or two universities do carry a full collection of the standards. It may be that someone on here has access to a copy and can look up the details. What I have found is a reference to use of used conductor rail which says that rail of 105lb/yard or 106lb/yard can be reused in siding or to replace main iine CR if the cross section is not less than 75% of the original.

Terry Bendall

Brinton

Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Brinton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 pm

Help ! What do the various markings - LCB, CT, OT etc on the third rail kit mean ?

Terry Bendall
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Re: Conductor Rail Supports Kit

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:28 pm

Brinton wrote:Help ! What do the various markings - LCB, CT, OT etc on the third rail kit mean


This is the full list

LOB London Transport outside electrified rail insulator base support
LCB London Transport centre electrified rail insulator base support
CT London Transport centre electrified rail insulator top
OT Outside electrified rail insulator top SR and LT
SB SR base
R low support for end of SR ramp.

If kit has come via the Society stores you should have had an instruction leaflet supplied with it which explains the markings. If you have not not one send me a private massage and I will post you a copy since I have a spare.

Terry Bendall


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