Templot

[Martin Wynne]

It was intended to be simple and obvious to modellers who have actually built track on layouts and have a knowledge of prototype track.

That of course is absolutely fine as an objective although I have not seen it stated before.

Hi Terry,

These words have been on the Templot web site for many years:

"If you build your own track to prototype designs and want to replicate in model form the flow of curves through pointwork which is such an attractive feature of the traditional railway, Templot is the software you need."

See: http://templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

But I suspect very few beginners read any of that before diving into the program.

However if this is the objective then it seems to me that those who are new to the hobby, who have never built track, or know little or nothing about prototype track are going to be at a disadvantages from the start, regardless of any perceived difficulty in using the software and in consequence some people will be off before they have even started.

True, but I never intended Templot to be a guide to handbuilding track or a primer on prototype track. There are plenty of other resources available covering all that. Expecting Templot to be what I never intended it to be is a little unfair, but that is probably at the heart of many of the criticisms. What I can do about it I haven't the faintest idea.

regards,

Martin.

[kelly]

I use Templot alongside the traditional track + template to plan a layout. Where templot has a distinct advantage for me, is I can change things around and work out what size baseboards to order from the laser cutter (Tim Horn in this case) without wasting money on incorrectly sized boards etc. It is a tool like any other, and for me is invaluable.

[JFS]

That of course is absolutely fine as an objective although I have not seen it stated before. However if this is the objective then it seems to me that those who are new to the hobby, who have never built track, or know little or nothing about prototype track are going to be at a disadvantages from the start, regardless of any perceived difficulty in using the software and in consequence some people will be off before they have even started.

Terry Bendall

Hello Terry,

This might come as a surprise to you, as perhaps it did to me, but the experience of demonstrating over the weekend shows that this is not the case. I was very pleased to note that the vast majority of people who came to talk were Templot users even though many of them had never built any track at all. I was also pleased to note that most of them were a lot younger than me - let alone you

If I were asked what is the main disadvantage with Templot, I would say that too many people seem to be too busy creating their masterpieces in Templot rather than in physical reality. More positively it is undoubtedly encouraging a lot of people to think about realistic track in ways that we could not have drempt of even 10 years ago.

Many thanks for a great weekend by the way

[Le Corbusier]

Hello Terry,

This might come as a surprise to you, as perhaps it did to me, but the experience of demonstrating over the weekend shows that this is not the case. I was very pleased to note that the vast majority of people who came to talk were Templot users even though many of them had never built any track at all. I was also pleased to note that most of them were a lot younger than me - let alone you

If I were asked what is the main disadvantage with Templot, I would say that too many people seem to be too busy creating their masterpieces in Templot rather than in physical reality. More positively it is undoubtedly encouraging a lot of people to think about realistic track in ways that we could not have drempt of even 10 years ago.

Many thanks for a great weekend by the way

I would second this ... fantastic resource.

[junctionmad]

At the risk of being beaten up at Scalefourm this weekend and then thrown out of the society

Well Scaleforum has now passed but this may also be a bit contentious ...

I have never used Templot, I have never seen the need to use it, and have no intention of doing so. Why? Because I can do all that I need to do in the way of layout planning by starting with a simple sketch of what is needed, laying out paper templates of the turnouts needed on a large sheet of board, along with some lengths of flexible track, which can even be OO ( ) and often putting stock down to see how things fit. It may well be that this works because all the layouts that I have built have tended to have fairly simple track layouts with standard turnouts and nothing fancy, because that is what the prototype is like. That of course dos not mean that Templot is not of value, just that I have never seen a need to use it.

It was intended to be simple and obvious to modellers who have actually built track on layouts and have a knowledge of prototype track.

That of course is absolutely fine as an objective although I have not seen it stated before. However if this is the objective then it seems to me that those who are new to the hobby, who have never built track, or know little or nothing about prototype track are going to be at a disadvantages from the start, regardless of any perceived difficulty in using the software and in consequence some people will be off before they have even started.

The prototype would always try to use simple track layouts and standard turnouts because that would be easier to built and maintain. The same is true of what we build. Complicated formations would only be used where the conditions dictated it. Whilst it may be very nice to built that four way turnout or outside double slip on a curve, such things are best avoided by the beginner.

In my view, for those who are starting in the hobby, the best advice is to start with something simple, learn the basics and then progress to more complex things. If we are new to loco building for example, no sensible person would start by building a 2-10-0 or a Garrett, but probably a simple 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 or even a diesel which may not even have couplings rods to contend with. Why struggle to learn how to use a piece of software when the important thing is to get on with the actual construction of the layout?

Terry Bendall

Interesting perspective , rather like saying a hammer is of little use simply because you see no need for nails. This conveniently overlooks the facts that millions of hammers get used every day.

Not everyone is a beginner and not everything wants a simple layout. Paper templates have a distinct problem , they cant be bent. Any examination of the prototype especially in the steam era, will show curved turnouts , irregular diamonds etc , Templot is one of the few realistic ways we have of generating templates to match such prototype requirements. Unless you possess significant drafting skills , setting out transitions curves and any form of curved tracks work requires Templot.

Hence the desire to master Templot, because we need the damm thing

[allanferguson]

It seems to me I have met about as many people who have difficulty soldering as those who can't manage Templot. All tools of the trade. Me, I can't manage CAD, which everyone tells me is easy.......

Allan F

[grovenor-2685]

they cant be bent

.
What has changed then? Before Templot we used to bend the paper templates and the P4 manual explains how to do it. Templot does, of course, make it easier and I would not go back to the old way. But it does work and most of my layout was built pre-Templot using such methods. Templot is a superb tool but not essential.
Regards

[JFS]

they cant be bent

.
What has changed then? Before Templot we used to bend the paper templates and the P4 manual explains how to do it. Templot does, of course, make it easier and I would not go back to the old way. But it does work and most of my layout was built pre-Templot using such methods. Templot is a superb tool but not essential.
Regards

More strictly, they can't be bent with any accuracy! Like everyone else, I did a lot of this in the early days. The result looked pretty rubbish. Judging by plenty of P4 layouts I see at exhibitions, other people seem much less bothered by such compromises than I was.

By a quick check, using Templot, I can create a double junction Template, both roads curved, dead accurately, in about 20 minutes. I reckon I could build it in the time it would take me to cut and paste the templates.

There are at least two well known BLT layouts in P4 which look beautiful until you look along their length when you (well, me then) immediately see curved plain track interspersed with dead straight turnouts. "Bending" straight templates produces a marginally better result. Even these days, the Real Thing aims not to do this sort of thing.

So Templot is not essential, but it will help you move to a potentially higher standard. We all use whatever tools we can, but I would not like us to discourage others from trying to use tools that we can't be bothered to master. And I am sure that was not anyone's intent in posting here.

I would also suggest that any one joining an Area Group will usually find one or more members who can help out with Templot - and everything else for that matter.

Edit:-
Just to add a rider:- having spoken to quite few beginners over this weekend, I have said to them that they need a template to build on - they don't need to learn Templot first however - there are more templates available from other sources than ever before in our history!

[Martin Wynne]

More strictly, they can't be bent with any accuracy! Like everyone else, I did a lot of this in the early days. The result looked pretty rubbish.

So did mine. A single turnout was not too bad, but a proper curved crossover was awful.

The need for decent curved templates was the very reason I started playing about with a computer solution in 1979.

See: http://templot.com/companion/2_yes_i_build_track.html

Martin.

[Serjt-Dave]

Blimey guys.

All I asked was for a little in finding someone who could possibly make me up a track plan using Templot. It certainly wasn't a springboard for a debate for the pros and cons of it. Martin I'm very sorry to be the instigator in all this and my apologies if I've caused any offence. Believe me there's nothing wrong with Templot it's just that I can't be arsed to learn how to use it. That's not exactly true. It's more like a combination lack of time and the skill set in the use of this sort of software.

One of the problems I had is that I treated the Trackpad as the room where you wished to have your layout rather than the baseboard as Martin pointed out earlier in this thread, so I've learnt that at least. LOL. I've seen what can be achieved using Templot and that's what I want. My idea for a track plan isn't big or complex, it's Eddington Junction on the Highbridge Branch of the S&D. To have nice following track and sweeping curves especially so as there will have to be alterations so the track plan in the space available. I don't doubt that this can be achieved by using the old method of paper templates laid out on the floor, after all that how I used to do it before I had a computer.

So where does this leave me and my problem? Those who gave a response to my request recommended that I go on the Templot forum {in hide sight that's where I should have gone in the first place} where I should be able to find either someone who can do a track plan for me or I can get more help and advise in using Templot myself.

Regards

Dave

[Martin Wynne]

Martin I'm very sorry to be the instigator in all this and my apologies if I've caused any offence.

Hi Dave,

No offence at all.

This topic about the awfulness of Templot comes up regularly on here and other forums.

There are several people offering paid-for design work with Templot. It's difficult for me to give details for fear of leaving others out, and nothing I say comes with any endorsement from me whatsoever. These links are posted simply for your convenience.

Three such are:

Norman Saunders: http://www.just-tracks.co.uk/track-desi ... l-railway/

Stephen Freeman: http://www.borg-rail.com/track.html

Raymond Walley: http://www.raymondwalley.com/track/cjf. ... -pQ7H0nHqE

But you may find that if you ask on the Templot Club forum others will volunteer to help, probably for free.

regards,

Martin.

[stephenfreeman]

Hi,

It's a fairly simple layout comprising if my calculations are correct 9 turnouts. The National Library of Scotland come to the rescue once again with their scanning initiative here is the link for the map,http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.1815&lon=-2.8730&layers=176&b=1.

I've had a quick look and can help get him started if he likes with the shape file and plan as far as I could take it without getting too involved with it.

[Martin Wynne]

The National Library of Scotland come to the rescue once again with their scanning initiative here is the link for the map,http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.1815&lon=-2.8730&layers=176&b=1

Dragging the overlay slider (on the left) on those maps is fascinating and addictive. Prepare to lose an hour or two on your favourite locations.

Martin.

[John Palmer]

Here's a very rough and ready overlay of a Templot design on the OS plan:

Edington_Jc.jpg

As you can see, I cut and pasted into the background image the scale printed at the foot of the plan and used this to resize the image within Templot to the appropriate scale, using the ruler tool. I've been doing this design with the generator set to omit sleeper detail, so it's possible some of my custom North British trackwork has crept in, but that should be easy enough to rectify. Obviously some tidying up and timber shoving are likely to be required to make this a usable design, but it might represent a starting point.
And here's the boxfile:

edington_jc_2016_09_27_1618_03.box

[Martin Wynne]

so it's possible some of my custom North British trackwork has crept in

Hi John,

Yes, all the check rails have the short stubby flared ends. David would probably prefer the default REA check rail ends.

Unfortunately there isn't a global means to change them all back in one go (I will consider adding one), each template needs to be done individually.

1. real > adjust check rails menu item.

2. make each template the control in turn.

3. for each one, click the unadjusted settings... button on the above dialog.

4. for each check rail dimension on the data-entry dialog, enter a leading slash / character. The numbers will then be ignored and replaced with the pre-set REA default.

5. for the flangeway dimensions, just press Enter. (Don't enter a slash or you will get exact-scale S4).

6. make the control on the next template and repeat.

Apologies if this method fails to comply with the Microsoft guidelines. I searched for "adjust check rails" on the Microsoft web site and got nowhere.

regards,

Martin.

[Serjt-Dave]

Thanks Stephen and John for your help much appreciated. I spent the afternoon playing around with Templot, went to save my efforts and that's the last I saw of it. LOL. It saved the baseboard boundary but not the track? So Stephen I think I may be getting in contact with you.

All Best

Dave

[Martin Wynne]

I spent the afternoon playing around with Templot, went to save my efforts and that's the last I saw of it. LOL.

Hi Dave,

I don't know what you did there. Templot won't let you Quit without asking to save your .box file. If you didn't store any background templates there was nothing to save. Even if you answered No the following will work, assuming you haven't restarted Templot since:

Restart Templot and answer yes please when asked if you want to restore your previous work. You will get back whatever you were working on. Even if you answer no thanks you can get it back later from files > recent files > reload > restore previous session menu item. But don't Quit again without doing that.

regards,

Martin.

[Paul Willis]

Could I just say a general "thank you" to all of you who have contributed to this thread with thoughts and offers to help Dave.

Not least to John who seems to have swiftly rattled up the necessary plan based on the OS map, which looks like an excellent basis to start planning the actual layout.

It really reflects how useful this Forum is to members, and also reminds us of the depth of knowledge which Martin and others contribute here and to the more specialised Templot Forum. I still read every message posted on there and I'm constantly picking up hints and tips about track as well as the program.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[kelly]

Could I just say a general "thank you" to all of you who have contributed to this thread with thoughts and offers to help Dave.

Not least to John who seems to have swiftly rattled up the necessary plan based on the OS map, which looks like an excellent basis to start planning the actual layout.

It really reflects how useful this Forum is to members, and also reminds us of the depth of knowledge which Martin and others contribute here and to the more specialised Templot Forum. I still read every message posted on there and I'm constantly picking up hints and tips about track as well as the program.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

I'd second this it has been interesting to read.

Martin does a lot to help users and to educate others on track information and so on, which is a valuable resource in and of itself really.

I'm still muddling through with templot, but have found a lot of help from various places, and some very helpful people over on the Templot Forum.

[MickRalph]

John Palmer wrote: "As you can see, I cut and pasted into the background image the scale printed at the foot of the plan and used this to resize the image within Templot to the appropriate scale, using the ruler tool. ".

I am missing something, as I can't find the scale to copy; can you point me to it please - I would like to try to develop the trackplan of Great Torrington (Devon) in Templot.

Mick

[John Palmer]

so it's possible some of my custom North British trackwork has crept in

Hi John,

Yes, all the check rails have the short stubby flared ends. David would probably prefer the default REA check rail ends.

Whoops, embarassing; didn't notice that. However, it only took me about 3 minutes in total to rattle through all turnouts altering the flares back to the REA default, so not a time consuming option. Thank you, Martin, for pointing it out, but don't knock yourself out making it feasible to do a global reset to the defaults. I would think that if, like me, the designer has developed some custom trackwork components and saved them as library templates (very useful to avoid massive amounts of timber shoving on sleepered leads), he will probably be using them throughout the design, so a global reset seems unlikely to be required.

I've done a bit of tidying up, rolling rails, and timber shoving to produce a more presentable design, attached here:

edington_jc_2016_09_27_2338_00.box

Not sure how appropriate the REA switches are for what Dave has in mind. Certainly there appear to be semi-curved switches visible in pictures of the Dorset taken in the 'thirties, but go back far enough and something more exotic will probably be required.

As teenagers, a young lady friend and I once pedalled out to Edington Burtle, as the Junction had become, and opportunistically returned to Highbridge by what was probably the four fifteen ex Templecombe with our bicycles stowed in the brake. By that date, of course, there was nary a trace of the Bridgwater Railway to be seen, but the tranquillity of the Levels on a sunny afternoon made up for what had been lost.

John Palmer wrote: "As you can see, I cut and pasted into the background image the scale printed at the foot of the plan and used this to resize the image within Templot to the appropriate scale, using the ruler tool. ".

I am missing something, as I can't find the scale to copy; can you point me to it please - I would like to try to develop the trackplan of Great Torrington (Devon) in Templot.

Mick, Here's an image showing where I plonked the scale on the extract of the Ordnance plan I have been using, and a couple of hints about the scaling technique I used:

Image scaling.jpg

On the original, the scale appears at the bottom of the plan, so I took a screen grab of the scale, pasted it into Paint.net, then cut and pasted the scale alone into the image of that part of the plan as showed the station layout.

[MickRalph]

Thanks John, but I still can't find the scale, neither on this map nor on the Torrington one. I tried IE as well as Firefox, in case it wasn't showing in Firefox.

Mick

[stephenfreeman]

Hi,
John looks to have gone down the same path as myself, only he's finished it. Well done. NLS maps is very useful, will be even better once they've finished the 25 inch map scans.

[John Palmer]

Mick, I too have been using Firefox; here's a screenshot of the page displaying the Torrington map. I've marked the area where the scale is shown with a green ellipse. Seems strange you're not getting the scale - could this be because you are looking at a different plan? This is the 1904 edition, and you should be able to go to it directly by typing in the URL visible in the screenshot.

Torrington.jpg

.
The 25 inch map scans are indeed something! Mixed gauge visible in scans of Swindon, as I recall. What I found particularly intriguing were NLS's scans of the route taken by the Mallaig extension, where you can see the permanent way in some places and MacAlpine's contractors' railways in others, as theExtension was still under construction when the map was drawn.

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks John, but I still can't find the scale, neither on this map nor on the Torrington one.

Hi Mick,

There are 3 ways of viewing the NLS maps: Find by place, Geo-referenced Overlay, Side-by-Side.

To see the individual sheets with a scale, you need Find by place.

nls_maps.png

1. click Find by place

2. choose England and Wales or Scotland

3. choose OS 25 inch for 1:2500 maps (they also have some larger 1:1250 maps and 1:500 town plans which are great for Templot, but the coverage is very limited).

4. a map will then appear. Drag it and zoom in, and click on the square you want. If it is not coloured, they haven't scanned that area yet.

5. a list of available sheets and dates will appear on the right, select which one you want to look at.

regards,

Martin.