Templot

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
MickRalph
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Re: Templot

Postby MickRalph » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:56 pm

Thanks John and Martin for your replies.

I followed the link in the original post and landed on the map of Edington Junction with a screen like Martin's, but in the "Explore geo...." screen; the "Find Place" box was available, so I entered Great Torrington into the search box and it showed the map of Torrington, but as part of the seamless map of the UK (so with no scale, as Martin says). It was not until I clicked on the Find Place button at the top of the page and then entered Great Torrington in the same search box that I was able to access the specific sheet for Torrington.

The use of this website is very unintuitive (unlike Templot ;) ) and I searched it for mentions of the scale rule, but without success.

I am now set up with the plan to enable me to derive the layout of Torrington in Templot.

Regards

Mick

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Templot

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:49 pm

I have just been catching up with this thread and rarely post on this forum, but feel I should make a few comments here.
Firstly I am glad that the original reason for the posting has been resolved and Dave has got help with his track design although as has already been stated, the Templot forum would have been a better place to post it.
My concern is with some peoples attitude to Templot. I find it strange that Templot seems to have more than its fair share of critics and have difficulty understanding why. Templot is what it is and I believe should be accepted as such. Its age pre-dates many of the present standards in any case. I have tried on several occasions to get to grips with CAD programmes with limited success. It must be me because I know others manage perfectly well with them.
Templot demands a particular approach, which is a little different from other programmes I have encountered. I was perhaps fortunate in that I purchased a second hand PC just to run Templot and was therefore unencumbered with preconceived expectations of how it should function. The first thing I did was read through the question and answer section on the forum (which was on the CD, it was that long ago) as I guessed that most of the common questions would be answered there. Yes it took me a while to get to grips with it, but I have to say that just by trying different things I managed to work out how to use most of it. The one thing that really stumped me was transition curves, which I did have to consult the tutorials to understand. I know this will not encourage Martin in his manual growth, but that was my choice and I knew where to look for answers when I needed them.
Yes, it is perfectly possible to design and build a layout without Templot using paper Templates and drawings, Green Street was done that way, but back then there was no choice and the layout was largely straight. I also had the problem that Green Street is built to S4 standards using P4 templates and the geometry is slightly different between the two. (Not a problem with Templot). The infamous 5 way turnout was generated by tracing first a left-hand tandem turnout, then a right-hand one over the top and adding in all the extra crossings and photocopying it. In retrospect I am still surprised it works as well as it does. Whilst it is perfectly possible to curve a straight template by filleting it the results leave much to be desired and the geometry is distorted too as JFS has commented.
I think we owe Martin a huge debt of gratitude for having the courage to share this wonderful piece of software for all to use and I for one wonder how we used to manage without it. It is a tool like no other other designed for a specific purpose and boy does it achieve that. Then there is the forum and a good level of support, especially from Martin himself. I think we are extremely fortunate and should cherish it,
Many thanks Martin.
Tony W.

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kelly
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Re: Templot

Postby kelly » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:26 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Yes, it is perfectly possible to design and build a layout without Templot using paper Templates and drawings, Green Street was done that way, but back then there was no choice and the layout was largely straight. I also had the problem that Green Street is built to S4 standards using P4 templates and the geometry is slightly different between the two. (Not a problem with Templot). The infamous 5 way turnout was generated by tracing first a left-hand tandem turnout, then a right-hand one over the top and adding in all the extra crossings and photocopying it. In retrospect I am still surprised it works as well as it does. Whilst it is perfectly possible to curve a straight template by filleting it the results leave much to be desired and the geometry is distorted too as JFS has commented.
I think we owe Martin a huge debt of gratitude for having the courage to share this wonderful piece of software for all to use and I for one wonder how we used to manage without it. It is a tool like no other other designed for a specific purpose and boy does it achieve that. Then there is the forum and a good level of support, especially from Martin himself. I think we are extremely fortunate and should cherish it,
Many thanks Martin.
Tony W.


There are many ways to design track for our layouts, all of them are equally valid. In the same way over on MERG for example, someone might use CBUS, but someone else might use PTP-Lite or another system available in kit form from there, they're all valid and all have plenty of support. In the end, we choose what works best for us, if paper templates work best for someone then that is great, if templot (or another bit of software) works best for another, then equally that is great.

In the end, running trains and having fun is the goal to some extent.

And, yes, Martin is deserving of gratitude for giving us the option of accurate templates that can be altered to a particular need for hand built track.
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junctionmad
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Re: Templot

Postby junctionmad » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:59 pm

Tony W , one should not confuse a critique with criticism, a critique is a rather theoretical discussion. We do this precisely because we care and recognise the contribution Templot has made to this hobby. If it was irelevant, we wouldn't be saying anything at all.

there is no doubt that there are a section of potential users , who may or may not be beginners in track production, who struggle with Templot ( for various reasons ) . Their criticisms are in reality of little concern as Martin has said many times that he is at a lost to make it more accessible. ( even if he had the time to do it )


For some of us , especially those of us in the software bussiness , we are no doubt aware that a prime requisite is a thick skin as critiques are a daily occurrence ,some provide useful pointers others merely bring a wry smile.

From his various prognostications , I suspect Martin is no shrinking violet !!!

Keep on trucking Martin

Dave

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Templot

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:47 pm

Hi Dave.
My comments weren't aimed at anyone in particular, but were intended more as a general observation.
You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Regards
Tony W.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:11 pm

Many thanks all for the kind words.

This month it is 5 years since I sold the final paid-for copy of Templot and ceased trading. I think that's long enough for any outstanding obligations to my customers to have been fulfilled.

Templot is now free for anyone to use, and I'm pleased that many modellers find it useful. If you get stuck and ask sensible questions on the Templot forum, I will always do my best to help. As do many other Templot users on there.

But to those who just want to tell me it is all wrong and should be done differently, my answer is simple: If Templot doesn't meet your needs -- don't use it.

I still enjoy developing the program, and I intend to go on doing so. If I see something which would be an improvement I would always want to adopt it if possible. But I'm not going to change anything just because it doesn't match someone else's idea of how things ought to be done. For over 3 decades now I've spent countless hours trying things, testing ideas, working out the most useful way of doing things based on my experience of actual track building. Generally Templot has arrived at where it is because every other way I tried wasn't so useful in actually creating track construction templates, whatever merits they may have had in other regard.

It is of course probable, certain even, that by starting again with a blank sheet of paper, something much better could be achieved. But that's for someone else to do now. Writing code is no task for an aging brain. I'm very conscious of how much slower I am nowadays, and how much harder I have to concentrate to avoid making silly mistakes. When I find myself creating new bugs faster than I can fix old ones, it will be time to stop. Image

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

John Palmer
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Re: Templot

Postby John Palmer » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:28 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:I think we owe Martin a huge debt of gratitude for having the courage to share this wonderful piece of software for all to use and I for one wonder how we used to manage without it. It is a tool like no other other designed for a specific purpose and boy does it achieve that. Then there is the forum and a good level of support, especially from Martin himself. I think we are extremely fortunate and should cherish it,
Many thanks Martin.
Tony W.

Couldn't put it better.

I purchased my earliest version of Templot when it was paid-for software. I was happy to pay the price Martin Wynne was then asking, and would be happy to do so now, were I acquiring it for the first time. That Martin now offers it for download without charge is extraordinarily generous, given the scope of the package's capabilities. The fact that it makes possible the creation of customised libraries of P&C components has prompted me to dig deeper into the permanent way practices of the particular pre-group company in which I am interested, with a view to making my models a better representation of those practices. In that sense Templot has positively encouraged me to extend my knowledge of British railway track.

This thread stimulated me to develop a Templot track plan from that shown on a map – the Edington Junction drawing was my first attempt at this. Just for giggles, I engaged in a similar exercise with a particular prototype favourite of mine: Leith Citadel, as shown on the accompanying image.
Skeletal track design.jpg
I had it in mind that this might be a suitable candidate for the Standard Gauge Workbench challenge, and, indeed, it's possible to fit the whole station in a box measuring 4' 8.5” X 5' 9”, as shown by the background shape outline superimposed on the image. In 4mm scale, some of the curves go down to under 22” in radius: we are well into Y9 and J88 territory here!

On reflection, the Leith and Edington exercises brought home to me the fact that compact prototypes are hard to find, and Leith is uncommon as an example of a 'dense' layout in a confined space. Edington, by contrast, is going to require 16' to accommodate just the station, leaving aside the fact that from here the Branch runs dead straight for a mile to the east before a slight curve where it crosses the Glastonbury Canal. Even if one overlooks the absence of any real world feature capable of serving as a convenient scenic break, Dave is going to be looking at a minimum length of 22' in order to reproduce Edington to scale, and I guess from his 10:33-27-09-2016 post that compression is going to be required. If so, reproducing to scale a prototype layout by superimposing templates on an Ordnance plan is of little assistance to him – what's needed are details of the space available, as only then can one turn Templot loose to see whether a convincing impression of the station can be captured.

Knuckles
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Re: Templot

Postby Knuckles » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:22 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Dave.
...My general observation
You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
Regards
Tony W.


Sadly I have to pipe in with another bone comment. Can't resist this one.

What you just said sounds like an argument for compensation or springing, if only people were wheels...(Thinks Return to Oz).

You can please all of the wheels some of the time and some of the wheels all of the time, but you can't please all of the wheels all of the time."
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

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Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

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Noel
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Re: Templot

Postby Noel » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:49 am

It's a variation on a quotation usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Templot

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:55 am

Hi John, once again thanks for your efforts on my behalf, I really do appreciate it. I was under no illusions that the plan wouldn't need to adjusted to fit the space I have available but having the made up plan to tinker with is very helpful and a great starting point.

The room {cellar} I have for my layout is 4.7m {15.4'} x 3.2m {10.4'} in size. So the Shapwick end {the end with the level crossing} and the other ends {the Highbridge and Bridgwater branches} will have to be on a curve, but the vast amount of the station area should be fine. The challenge will be making the Bridgwater branch look like it's turning away from the Highbridge branch but then it has to curve back around and follow the Highbridge line {hidden} to the fiddle yard. As the Highbridge line is going to see the bulk of the traffic and also I'm upping the status of the line so I can run larger locos this will need to have the more kinder curves, where's the Bridgwater branch the curves can be tighter as only 0-6-0's will be venturing down there and once the line is clear of the junction and scenic area it will be hidden.

All good fun.

All Best

Dave

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LesGros
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Re: Templot

Postby LesGros » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:58 am

Noel wrote:It's a variation on a quotation usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."


Sadly, to get elected it is only necessary for a politician to fool enough of the people for enough of the time. :cry:

edit: time to get back on topic, with appreciation for Martin's work on our behalf. :thumb
LesG

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never made anything useful

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Templot

Postby Paul Townsend » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:48 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:The room {cellar} I have for my layout is 4.7m {15.4'} x 3.2m {10.4'} in size. So the Shapwick end {the end with the level crossing} and the other ends {the Highbridge and Bridgwater branches} will have to be on a curve, but the vast amount of the station area should be fine. The challenge will be making the Bridgwater branch look like it's turning away from the Highbridge branch but then it has to curve back around and follow the Highbridge line {hidden} to the fiddle yard. As the Highbridge line is going to see the bulk of the traffic and also I'm upping the status of the line so I can run larger locos, this will need to have the more kinder curves, where's the Bridgwater branch the curves can be tighter as only 0-6-0's will be venturing down there and once the line is clear of the junction and scenic area it will be hidden.

Dave

Are you planning to make your layout exhibitable or at least transportable and waterproof?
I had a dream recently that one weekend a year has Highbridge sandwiched between your Edington and John Palmer's Burnham-on-Sea.

This dream occurred on Saturday night in Aylesbury just past.
Tim Venton would tell you it must have been the third whisky post curry that caused it. Ash will deny everything on pain of exposure!

It should be easy enough to send Sylvia to Italy for that weekend!

I would have to cut a couple of holes in the Highbridge "Shed" but wood buildings are versatile!
8-)

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Ian Everett
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Re: Templot

Postby Ian Everett » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:37 pm

John Palmer wrote: I engaged in a similar exercise with a particular prototype favourite of mine: Leith Citadel, as shown on the accompanying image. Skeletal track design.jpg I had it in mind that this might be a suitable candidate for the Standard Gauge Workbench challenge, and, indeed, it's possible to fit the whole station in a box measuring 4' 8.5” X 5' 9”, as shown by the background shape outline superimposed on the image. In 4mm scale, some of the curves go down to under 22” in radius: we are well into Y9 and J88 territory here!


A lovely prototype, one of my all time favoutites but I've always known it as North Leith (NOT to be confused with Leith North!) Apparently it changed its name to Leith Citadel in 1952

See http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_ ... tation.htm

Somebody please, please build it for the SGW!!!

Is there any other town of equivalent size to Leith which had so many stations, all of which have been closed? I can think of North Leith, South Leitj, Leith North, Leith Central (of "Trainspotting fame) and Leith Walk. There were probably others but I do not have my Ian Allen Pre-Grouping Atlas to hand.

Ian

John Palmer
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Re: Templot

Postby John Palmer » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:41 pm

Well, Dave, now that you've supplied your cellar dimensions, here's my take on how you might reproduce Edington:
Edington Jc compressed.jpg
Here's the throat:
Edington Jc throat.jpg
And here's the boxfile:
edington_jc_compress_2016_10_01_1918_20.box
(467.25 KiB) Downloaded 30 times

Five turnouts laid end to end take up a fair length, so the curves required to make this a circular run are quite fierce. I adopted a minimum radius of 1188mm on the main line (the equivalent of 4.5 chains), but had to go down to 905mm on the Bridgwater line, whilst the siding alongside the Bridgwater line is a smidge under 3 feet in radius. I've used a dummy vehicle with dimensions equivalent to that of a LMS 57' underframe to test clearances, which all appear to be OK, but a further check on these wouldn't go amiss. The fiddle yard is representative only.

Not sure this is going to work too well for larger engines. Getting an S&D 2-8-0 round these curves could be entertaining, but entirely appropriate, for they went to Highbridge for repairs before the Works' closure; indeed 9678 was one of the last two engines to receive a heavy overhaul there.

All of this should fit within the dimensions you supplied; the yellow outline visible in the picture is a bounding box of the cellar dimensions in your last post.

The notion of connecting Burnham, Highbridge and Edington together had also flitted though my mind. But who, then, will make Bason Bridge?

I'd like to clarify that the Burnham layout is not my own, but very much the product of a group endeavour over many years. A number of people have put a lot of hard work into it, I just have the privilege of providing its accommodation.

John Palmer
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Re: Templot

Postby John Palmer » Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:01 pm

Ian Everett wrote:Somebody please, please build it for the SGW!!!

Making a model of North Leith/Leith Citadel is awful tempting, but I'm probably too far committed to my West Highland project, assuming I can fit this in with work remaining on Burnham - some hope!

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_-_railways_leith.htm#north_leith_station takes you to a selection of photographs of the station that may further whet someone's appetite. Glorious shot of an immaculate Cundy Pilot standing close to the gates leading to the Commercial Street level crossing and the docks beyond. Harry Knox' book on St Margarets has a lovely double page spread showing a K3 adjacent to where the signal box stood.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Templot

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:50 pm

Paul Townsend wrote:I had a dream recently that one weekend a year has Highbridge sandwiched between your Edington and John Palmer's Burnham-on-Sea.


Alternatively of course, and going very much off topic, do the same thing at one of the Society's exhibitions. I know one organiser who is open to such suggestions. :D

There was an occasion many years ago at Model World in Brighton when Pulborough and Ferring were on show back to back and someone suggested a linking line between the two.

Terry Bendall

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Templot

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:28 am

An Update. Try as I might I can't get the plan of Eddington Junction to fit in the space I have available in my cellar without distorting the plan too much. I have about 15.5 feet in length to play with and I was hoping just to be able curving the ends of plan around but it still eats into the main station area.

So I thought I'd try my loft. I would gain about half a meter in length and width but my loft would have to be totally fitted out and there's the issue of two support beams just where you don't want them.

My wife surprisingly suggests having a shed in the garden {is she trying to get rid of me?}. So I'm now looking into that idea. I was hoping to get the layout started by the end of this year. I could probably get some of the base boards and even track laid by then basing the size of the shed I'll be ordering 20' x 12' but I'm not going to have that sorted till mid next year.

This is turning out to becoming a very expensive layout. It's cost me a new kitchen already and now a couple of grand for a shed etc and I haven't laid any track yet. I should have stuck with my Hornby Thomas the Tank Engine set.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Templot

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:43 am

Serjt-Dave wrote:An Update. Try as I might I can't get the plan of Eddington Junction to fit in the space I have available in my cellar without distorting the plan too much. I have about 15.5 feet in length to play with and I was hoping just to be able curving the ends of plan around but it still eats into the main station area.

Hi Dave,

Have you tried putting a gentle curve through the entire original plan? Templot includes functions to wrap a scanned image along a curve, like this (exaggerated for clarity):

Image
That is/was Crewkerne.

More about how to do all that here: http://templot.com/companion/wrap_pictu ... curve.html

regards,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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kelly
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Re: Templot

Postby kelly » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:40 am

Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Dave,

Have you tried putting a gentle curve through the entire original plan? Templot includes functions to wrap a scanned image along a curve, like this

.


That could well be something of use to something I've been looking at. Thanks for posting Martin, helpful as ever.
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Ian White
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Re: Templot

Postby Ian White » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:02 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:Have you tried putting a gentle curve through the entire original plan? Templot includes functions to wrap a scanned image along a curve

Templot really is an incredible piece of software - and an utterly jaw-dropping achievement for a one-man development team!


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