DCC Concepts bullhead fishplates

[Martin Wynne]

Has anyone tried the new bullhead rail joiners/fishplates from DCC Concepts?

The C&L website says they now have them in stock: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?r ... t_id=12291


image linked from: http://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows. ... Qty1_3.jpg

If dropper wires are pre-soldered to the bottom of these before use, they would make an unobtrusive electrical connection and avoid heat damage to chairs when adding dropper wires. Also being phosphor-bronze, soldering is easy using ordinary electrical flux, rather than soldering to existing steel rail or the new stainless-steel rail. This assumes they are tight-fitting on the rail of course.

It's unfortunate that they show 6 fishbolts rather than 4. Some special 6-bolt insulated fishplates are now in use, but not on bullhead rail.

Martin.

[Knuckles]

I have to give an awkward comment. My current practice is to wire track like Iain Rice explains in one of his books as I tried it and so far have had zero issues so I'll keep it. Basically solder two droppers to each rail so if one fails the other will work.

I also read elsewhere that apparently relying on fish plates for electrical continuity can lead to issues later on as small arcs can cause accumulative carbon deposits over time. This may be poppy cock but my older layouts had these dirty bits on and sometimes I did experience power failures on fish plate joins so I tend to believe it.

My future plan is to gap some copper clad sleepers and basically put a nail in the sleepers so the electrical and mechanical join can be perfectly disguised.

These fish plates you show look good so might try some but as you said the 6 rather than 4 looks odd. I have used the fold up brass fish plates and the Exactoscale plastic ones before but in all honesty I find them to be a bugger as they keep breaking.

Maybe these new ones could be cut down to show only 4 bolts. Then again that might crimp them and ruin them. Worth a try though.

[grovenor-2685]

It is unfortunate that DCC Concepts chose to make a fictional fishplate, made the correct length, with 4 bolts and the skirt continuous like a real skirted fishplate they may have been worth the premium price.
Regards

[JFS]

I bought a packet of these along with some Stainless rail when we were in Perth a few weeks ago. I have not done much by way of experimentation, but it would appear at first glance that they can be used as you suggest Martin. But they look like nothing ever seen in the UK, and I don't intend to use them in visible locations. I also found that soldering the rail was by no means as easy as promised and it will never work with any form of soldered construction. I have tried the rail in Exactoscale chairs and the fit seems very similar to that of existing rail suppliers - ie workable but not as good as it used to be in days of yore. I would comment that the rail is quite soft - probably similar to mild steel rail - so take care not to kink it. But it files quite easily.

I would also comment that if the photo on the website is anything to go by, the to-be-released points have several faults also. Hopefully, such details apart, when these chaps get themselves set-up in Yorkshire it might, just might be the beginning of the end for PxCO's flatbottom rubbish, even if it is not much use for members here...

In the meantime, the 00 gauge flexi-track is also available from Hattons, and it will be interesting to see what the up-take is like.

Best Wishes,

[Noel]

They comment on their website that stainless steel won't corrode [generally true under normal conditions]. They don't mention that this means that most fluxes won't work on it, including, I think, those that they sell, given that these are supposed to be good for brass, copper, whitemetal and electronics applications. It does make me wonder how they expect the inexperienced to make use of their track parts...

[Martin Wynne]

It is unfortunate that DCC Concepts chose to make a fictional fishplate, made the correct length, with 4 bolts and the skirt continuous like a real skirted fishplate they may have been worth the premium price.

I suspect that with a full length skirt it would not provide a firm clip fit on both rails, if the web of one is fractionally thicker than the other.

DCC Concepts are selling a "no-clean" flux, claiming that it works on the stainless rail, providing the heat is turned well up.

If the rail is as soft and easily filed as Howard suggests, and can be soldered with an inactive flux, I'm wondering if it really is a stainless steel alloy in the usual sense.

Martin.

[Knuckles]

Can't comment on stainless steel but I've been using DCC Concepts Sappire No Clean Flux for a few years mainly for steel and electrical soldering and have had zero issues with corrosian. I'm a big fan of it.

[Colin Parks]

After such a long time in the waiting it seems imprudent to criticise any progress towards an 00 gauge ready to lay bullhead track system. However, let us hope that the 'six-bolt' fish plate design is not a portent of more (avoidable) errors to come. How could anybody, even using the most basic data, come up with a six-bolt fish plate?!

Colin

[dal-t]

From WikiHow on soldering Stainless Steel:

"Flux residue is acidic and should always be removed, even for “No Clean” fluxes."

Not entirely sure how that makes it 'no clean' ...

[Knuckles]

You could always throw popular opinion out of the window and give it a try. That's what I often do, then you know for a fact rather than theory what works for you and what doesn't. Your text is your opinion - what you are reading on Wiki' is someone elses so we have a conflict of opinions about the nature of a product so who do you trust? - This is normal in my life so experimenting and drawing conclusions is the only method I ultimately trust for coming to solid answers. In other words trusting is difficult due to a life with conflicts of beliefs.

"Green Tea will give you cancer," I read. I believe the exact opposite and shovel it down me.

Rarely does the percieved 'norm' ring true in my life. If the electrical wiring on my layout disolves in a few years I'll take this post back. Every time I check the wiring the wires and their joints look happy so I'm happy.

Pretty much everything (ok most things) is an acid or alkaline in various strengths but you don't spend all day cleaning everything in case your book shelf or the laminate disolves do you!?

[stephenfreeman]

Hi, No-clean is only No-clean in so far as it is not necessary to clean it off for electrical joints. For cosmetic reasons and to paint, it needs to be cleaned.

[grovenor-2685]

After such a long time in the waiting it seems imprudent to criticise any progress towards an 00 gauge ready to lay bullhead track system. However, let us hope that the 'six-bolt' fish plate design is not a portent of more (avoidable) errors to come. How could anybody, even using the most basic data, come up with a six-bolt fish plate?!

Colin

Richard Johnson's reply to this question when asked on RMweb a year ago.

*** True, but there is also a balance of pragmatism and logic in the choice.... just as selecting one of the common chair styles will eventually/soon be.

With commercial reality at the fore, choices are needed as covering variants is not always possible. It was just my choice... a little like choosing a warm glow for gas lamps was because faulty modeller memory assigns that attribute to them, perhaps thanks to movies etc... when to be realistic they should have been a harsh greenish-white.

* Yes, 4 bolt was more common but 6 bolts do exist - more commonly on point-work - which is where I think that they will be noticed far more... As much as we can argue over them, few really see the details in plain track.

* Reality says that the vast majority of buyers of this item may well be laying bullhead track but their real life experience is almost wholly in the FB era and all they know is 6 bolt plates... so to most they will be as they expect... and to most observers of their efforts, they will either not even be noticed or will be seen as "right" too .

* the use of 3 bolt allowed me to prove the possibility and allows me to re-use that part of the tooling for the FB versions that will also come... as I think existing mass market FB fishplates are less than good - another pragmatic reason... (That is important when an item already has high creative costs and its also worth remembering that this is a much finer item than others in material and in reality there are NO other practical fishplates with bolt detail)

Richard

You can draw your own conclusions.
Regards

[dal-t]

Hi Knuckles,

Good to see you're entering with such enthusiasm into the 'post-factual' society. I agree we should ignore all known properties of metals and non-metals - who are these experts we ought to ignore, after all? - and go back to the glorious days of alchemy. With luck I may even be able to recreate some of the earliest soldered kits I produced, where the uncleaned flux didn't just help the pointlessly applied paint to flake off, but also fostered an exceptional fungus-like growth around the separately-applied droplights and door hinges. Then I can fill my locos with lead, fixed with PVA, and wait for the boilers to pop themselves apart - just like the real thing with safety valves wired down! Of course, for those who are not quite such ardent followers of Herr Gove, there may be another way ...

[Noel]

DCC Concepts are selling a "no-clean" flux, claiming that it works on the stainless rail, providing the heat is turned well up.

Can't comment on stainless steel but I've been using DCC Concepts Sappire No Clean Flux for a few years mainly for steel and electrical soldering and have had zero issues with corrosian. I'm a big fan of it.

So, assuming it does make a joint, the next question is "How reliable is that joint?" Trackwork is subject to mechanical stresses, mostly from expansion and contraction with temperature variations. These are quite capable of breaking weak soldered joints between the rail and the fixed sleepers.

On the subject of stainless steel and experts:

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=150

Edited to remove a possible ambiguity

[Jol Wilkinson]

On the original section of London Road, dropper wires were soldered to the underside of the BH rails and passed through the baseboards. In recent years many of these failed electrically, possibly owing to corrosion from residual flux. Some were however still mechanically attached an required a definite "pull" to get them off. Perhaps they were capsulated in solder but now electrically disconnected through surface corrosion, rather like a dry joint. These were soldered in the early 80's and I don't know what solder or flux was used. The failure usually (and conveniently!) occurred after transporting the layout to a show, presumably due to vibration/shock. Repair involves soldering a new dropper to the (exhibition non-viewing) side of the rail.

For the new extension I used fold up etched brass fishplates that included a small tag underneath to take the dropper. I can't recall if these are Masokits or Ambis and their websites don't make it clear.

On the subject of "No Clean" flux, could this be a type of rosin flux as used for electrical/electronics work? I believe that this is heat activated and inert when cold. However, it usually leaves a residue of cold flux, which would normally be a detriment for our purposes.

[Paul Townsend]

inert when cold. However, it usually leaves a residue of cold flux, which would normally be a detriment for our purposes.

As you imply the resin flux residue is inert at room temperature and won't encourage corrosion.
I reckon the only detriment is its different way of taking paint compared to adjacent clean metal.

Most Highbridge track was built in '80s with resin cored electronics type solder, leaded of course. All rail is N/S.
I have tested it with very clean mild steel rail and it works fine. Stainless would probably not take with this flux.
No attempt was made to clean the flux residue and no problem with paint. Over 35 years it has had a few dropper failures but these were all due to failure of the rivet to flag bond made using the original type of brass punched strip, even though these were soldered post rivet closure. Where dropper wires were soldered directly to rail no failures have occurred.

[JFS]

DCC Concepts are selling a "no-clean" flux, claiming that it works on the stainless rail, providing the heat is turned well up.

If the rail is as soft and easily filed as Howard suggests, and can be soldered with an inactive flux, I'm wondering if it really is a stainless steel alloy in the usual sense.

Martin.

I am wondering why the heat needs to be turned up as I would have thought that was a factor of the solder rather than the job. And given that the material seems to have a low thermal conductivity it is not an issue of the heat flowing away to waste so to speak as with brass say.

It might all depend on our respective definitions of words like " it works" and "it can be"... You "can" solder glass provided you have the right materials and equipment. My attempt at soldering "worked" but the result was nowhere near as neat, nor so easily achieved as with say, nickel silver or mild steel rail. For example, if the first attempt caused the flux to boil off, then a full re-clean, reflux job was necessary before a second attempt had any chance of succeeding. Also, there was a distinct reluctance for the solder to flow by capilliary action. I tried three different strengths of phosphoric acid fluxes. I also have - and might yet try - tallow, rosin and zinc chloride fluxes. I hold out little hope for the first two and prefer to keep the third in the shed.

The bits that I experimented with were left unwashed and uncleaned and they show absolutely no sign of corrosion / tarnish / staining whatsoever. So I thing we can say that counts as stainless for our purposes.

I will bring these bits to my track building demo at Scaleforum so everyone can have a look and a play - feel free to bring your pet recipes of flux / solder etc....

Best wishes

[Knuckles]

Hi Knuckles,

Good to see you're entering with such enthusiasm into the 'post-factual' society. I agree we should ignore all known properties of metals and non-metals - who are these experts we ought to ignore, after all? - and go back to the glorious days of alchemy. With luck I may even be able to recreate some of the earliest soldered kits I produced, where the uncleaned flux didn't just help the pointlessly applied paint to flake off, but also fostered an exceptional fungus-like growth around the separately-applied droplights and door hinges. Then I can fill my locos with lead, fixed with PVA, and wait for the boilers to pop themselves apart - just like the real thing with safety valves wired down! Of course, for those who are not quite such ardent followers of Herr Gove, there may be another way ...

Glad you got a giggle out of that. : However I think you misunderatand my intent. I'm not advocating willing ignorance of physical properties yet what I am advocating is to experiment a bit rather than simply believing something when there are many conflicting opinions on any given subject.

Also contextually I was talking of electrical connections not needing cleaning rather than loco boilers pre paint or whatever.

To Noel - I've only had the layout a few years so I guess I by default can't give it a long term test until further years have elapsed, what I can say is every time I check the condition of the soldered joints the wiring always seems happy.

[Colin Parks]

I am finding the quote by Richard Johnson (kindly reproduced by Keith) to be rather confusing and unfathomable re. six-bolt fishplates:

So, if the vast majority of buyers expect flat-bottom features on a bullhead track system, can we expect some kind of grotesque hybrid track design from this manufacturer? This seems to be a case of: "However wrong it is, if we keep insisting, people will think it is correct!"

Colin

[Noel]

To Noel - I've only had the layout a few years so I guess I by default can't give it a long term test until further years have elapsed, what I can say is every time I check the condition of the soldered joints the wiring always seems happy.

I commented specifically about the trackwork, in particular the joints between sleepers fixed to the baseboard [directly or indirectly] and the rails:

Trackwork is subject to mechanical stresses, mostly from expansion and contraction with temperature variations. These are quite capable of breaking weak soldered joints between the rail and the fixed sleepers.

Wiring, being flexible, does not subject joints to the same levels of stress, in general. I recently refurbished a test track from a good few years ago, which had spent periods in two different lofts and been through several house moves. It was made from copperclad sleepers glued to plywood, with nickel silver rails soldered to them. There were several cases where the sleeper to baseboard joins had failed, and several where the soldered rail to sleeper join had failed, but no wiring failures.

[Knuckles]

I commented specifically about the trackwork, in particular the joints between sleepers fixed to the baseboard [directly or indirectly] and the rails:

Aye, so...

what I can say is every time I check the condition of the soldered joints the wiring always seems happy.

This includes soldering the wires to the track. I haven't covered sleepers though no.
If I was unclear my apologies. If I'm misunderstanding you or what I am saying is irrelavent then no worries.

[Martin Wynne]

I am finding the quote by Richard Johnson (kindly reproduced by Keith) to be rather confusing and unfathomable re. six-bolt fishplates: So, if the vast majority of buyers expect flat-bottom features on a bullhead track system, can we expect some kind of grotesque hybrid track design from this manufacturer?

"Reality says that the vast majority of buyers of this item may well be laying bullhead track but their real life experience is almost wholly in the FB era and all they know is 6 bolt plates"

It's all utter nonsense. Here is a drawing of a flat-bottom fishplate. Count the bolt holes:

fb_fishplate.png

Martin.

[Colin Parks]

Oh yes, I can see now - it's definitely six.

[grovenor-2685]

It's all utter nonsense. Here is a drawing of a flat-bottom fishplate. Count the bolt holes:

Perhaps not so nonsensical to an Australian where 6 bolt FB fishplates have been used much more commonly than here.
In UK there has been limited use of 6 hole plates, mainly for glued insulated joints, to provide enough strength for the stress in CWR.

I would love to see evidence for Richard's comment about them being used in bullhead turnouts, I have never seen any. With bullhead the chairs cannot be located over the fishplate so longer fishplates force the joint chairs apart to an unacceptable degree. Note the inner 4 bolts on a six hole plate are normally at the same spacing as for a 4 hole plate.
Regards

[billbedford]

Note the inner 4 bolts on a six hole plate are normally at the same spacing as for a 4 hole plate.

So all that need to be done is trim off the outer few millimetres of the etch?