Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
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mjmcmullan
Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
The photo http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/images/pf-time-capsules/916.jpg is taken in 1932 however the sleepers look long and almost 9' in length. Is it the distortion of the camera or could 9' sleepers existed on a main line at this point in time ? There are 18 sleepers per panel so they could be 44' 6" or 45' track panels ! Thank you in advance to any one that can help with sleeper length and track panel type!
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Tim V
- Posts: 2870
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Why not?
I saw 32' rails on 9' sleepers on the Wye Valleyin the 80s, may still be there.
I saw 32' rails on 9' sleepers on the Wye Valleyin the 80s, may still be there.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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Bulwell Hall
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
mjmcmullan wrote:The photo http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/images/pf-time-capsules/916.jpg is taken in 1932 however the sleepers look long and almost 9' in length. Is it the distortion of the camera or could 9' sleepers existed on a main line at this point in time ? There are 18 sleepers per panel so they could be 44' 6" or 45' track panels ! Thank you in advance to any one that can help with sleeper length and track panel type!
Since 9' long sleepers were standard on the GWR before 1920, along with 44' 6" rails, and the average life expectancy of plain track on a mainline was 19 years it is highly probable that this track was still in use in on the GW mainline in 1932. See 'GWR Switch and Crossing Practice' by David J. Smith, published by the Great Western Study Group, for everything you will ever need to know about GWR track!
Incidently, I shall be starting my once weekly journey to Paddington from the platform on the right of the photograph tomorrow morning by catching the 08.19 to Bath Spa. Sadly the station no longer looks as it does in the photo - the Brunelian station building went in the 1960s whilst the canopies at the Bristol end of both platforms - installed for the workers at the Frys factory when the company relocated to Keynsham from the centre of Bristol in the early 1920s - are about to be demolished in connection with the electrification of the GW mainline so yet another small piece of GWR history is about to disappear.
Gerry
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mjmcmullan
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Thanks Gerry, that gives me confidence to the possibility of 9' sleepers in that era. I will obtain the book from C+L products and read up a little more before sticking down the sleepers. Such a waste that the Brunelian station was demolished as the station closed only for a short time. I have numerous photos of the station and with the information I was able to obtain by asking the archivist at Network Rail. They have five drawings. Extensive detail of the down building and an outline of the old Bruneian building and the goods shed.
.
So with the outline and the photos I should be able to create some good models of the station building. The only shot I don't have is of the Bitton Road side of the main station building!
I saw the planning approval on the BNES council website for the demolition of the shelters. I objected to the demolition on the basis of their historical and architectural value. I hope they are saved, or moved to a preserved line like the original footbridge. At least the shelters should be measured up. It's ironic that it was Network Rail that were happy to sell me the plans of the old station, yet are so willing to demolish almost 100 year old structures!
I have been dreaming of flying over from Australia in September to see Scaleforum and measuring up the last remnants, including the shelters, road bridge and the rail entrance to the old Fry's factory, but Im not sure the shelters will last that long unless my objection is successful! I hope I haven't put a stop to the electrification of Brunel's line!
Kind Regards,
Michael
. So with the outline and the photos I should be able to create some good models of the station building. The only shot I don't have is of the Bitton Road side of the main station building!
I saw the planning approval on the BNES council website for the demolition of the shelters. I objected to the demolition on the basis of their historical and architectural value. I hope they are saved, or moved to a preserved line like the original footbridge. At least the shelters should be measured up. It's ironic that it was Network Rail that were happy to sell me the plans of the old station, yet are so willing to demolish almost 100 year old structures!
I have been dreaming of flying over from Australia in September to see Scaleforum and measuring up the last remnants, including the shelters, road bridge and the rail entrance to the old Fry's factory, but Im not sure the shelters will last that long unless my objection is successful! I hope I haven't put a stop to the electrification of Brunel's line!
Kind Regards,
Michael
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Bulwell Hall
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Well it's happened - the GWR built canopies at Keynsham are no more! The photo shows the situation at Keynsham station around lunchtime today where major engineering works are underway in connection with the GWML electrification. The canopies - which were provided by the GWR for arriving departing workers at the Frys factory - were demolished last week. The track was also lifted, the track bed excavated to lower the track level and then new track relaid to provide clearence for the wires beneath Station Rd. bridge. Removal of the canopies has revealed a long disused exit from the 'down' platform which I had not seen before.
The gateway in the other photo is/was the rail access across the A4175 to the former Frys factory. I passed this at the weekend and the gates were open - the first time I have seen them open in the twelve years I have lived in Keynsham. The trackbed of the connecting line was previously very overgrown and has been cleared and excavated as far back as the former exchange point with the Frys private railway and I have no idea of the purpose. The rails across the road are still in place beneath the tarmac and can been seen where they emerge from the pavement by the gates. I can't imagine for one moment that the railway is being reinstated although the former Frys Sentinel shunter is currently under restoration to working order at the Avon Valley Railway.
The gateway in the other photo is/was the rail access across the A4175 to the former Frys factory. I passed this at the weekend and the gates were open - the first time I have seen them open in the twelve years I have lived in Keynsham. The trackbed of the connecting line was previously very overgrown and has been cleared and excavated as far back as the former exchange point with the Frys private railway and I have no idea of the purpose. The rails across the road are still in place beneath the tarmac and can been seen where they emerge from the pavement by the gates. I can't imagine for one moment that the railway is being reinstated although the former Frys Sentinel shunter is currently under restoration to working order at the Avon Valley Railway.
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martin goodall
- Posts: 1425
- Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
I have only just seen this thread.
The 2mm difference (in 4mm scale) between 8'6" and 9'0" sleepers makes quite a difference to the appearance of the track. The change from the longer to the shorter sleepers took effect approximately from the end of the First World War, but the changeover was gradual. It may be helpful in explaining this if we look briefly at the practice adopted by the GWR in laying track on branch and secondary lines.
Rails and sleepers were expected to be used twice, first when new on a main line, then later as second-hand material for a branch line or siding. The decision whether to use new or second-hand rails and sleepers depended on the nature and density of the traffic and, in particular, the loco-axle loadings permitted on the line. Lines intermediate between main and branch might justify the use of new sleepers with second-hand rail.
New rail would be expected to last in main line use for at least 12 years on the most heavily trafficked lines. On less heavily used lines a further six or seven years' use might be achieved, but a total main line life of 20 years was exceptional. The rails and sleepers would then be lifted and would be assessed for further use. The best would be ear-marked for running line use on a branch line and the more worn rails and sleepers would be used for sidings. It is unlikely that these materials would be assessed as scrap at this stage.
Re-used rails and sleepers on a branch line would be expected to have a further life of 15 to 20 years, but the ultimate life of the track was determined by the life of the sleepers. They would not last more than 30 years at the outside. There would be no purpose in relaying the track with the existing rails at this stage, as the replacement of the rails a few years later would be wasteful of labour. So, when the sleepers were life-expired, both rails and sleepers would be replaced together, using fresh second-hand materials. Again, the lifted rails would be assessed for re-use elsewhere but in this case were more likely to go for scrap or at best for relaying in the most lightly used type of siding. When finally discarded, the 10-inch by 5-inch sleepers were cut in two length-wise to provide 5-inch square posts for the standard GWR post and wire lineside fencing.
Thus it will be seen that 8’6” sleepers would not have found their way onto branch lines until 1930 at the earliest, and that 9’0" sleepers could have survived in use on the running lines on some branches until as late as 1948.
Applying these PW practices to the example at Keynsham, it would not have been surprising to see 9-foot sleepers there in 1932, although 8ft 6in sleepers may well have replaced them quite soon after the photo was taken.
The 2mm difference (in 4mm scale) between 8'6" and 9'0" sleepers makes quite a difference to the appearance of the track. The change from the longer to the shorter sleepers took effect approximately from the end of the First World War, but the changeover was gradual. It may be helpful in explaining this if we look briefly at the practice adopted by the GWR in laying track on branch and secondary lines.
Rails and sleepers were expected to be used twice, first when new on a main line, then later as second-hand material for a branch line or siding. The decision whether to use new or second-hand rails and sleepers depended on the nature and density of the traffic and, in particular, the loco-axle loadings permitted on the line. Lines intermediate between main and branch might justify the use of new sleepers with second-hand rail.
New rail would be expected to last in main line use for at least 12 years on the most heavily trafficked lines. On less heavily used lines a further six or seven years' use might be achieved, but a total main line life of 20 years was exceptional. The rails and sleepers would then be lifted and would be assessed for further use. The best would be ear-marked for running line use on a branch line and the more worn rails and sleepers would be used for sidings. It is unlikely that these materials would be assessed as scrap at this stage.
Re-used rails and sleepers on a branch line would be expected to have a further life of 15 to 20 years, but the ultimate life of the track was determined by the life of the sleepers. They would not last more than 30 years at the outside. There would be no purpose in relaying the track with the existing rails at this stage, as the replacement of the rails a few years later would be wasteful of labour. So, when the sleepers were life-expired, both rails and sleepers would be replaced together, using fresh second-hand materials. Again, the lifted rails would be assessed for re-use elsewhere but in this case were more likely to go for scrap or at best for relaying in the most lightly used type of siding. When finally discarded, the 10-inch by 5-inch sleepers were cut in two length-wise to provide 5-inch square posts for the standard GWR post and wire lineside fencing.
Thus it will be seen that 8’6” sleepers would not have found their way onto branch lines until 1930 at the earliest, and that 9’0" sleepers could have survived in use on the running lines on some branches until as late as 1948.
Applying these PW practices to the example at Keynsham, it would not have been surprising to see 9-foot sleepers there in 1932, although 8ft 6in sleepers may well have replaced them quite soon after the photo was taken.
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Bulwell Hall
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Thank you Martin - a very succinct explanation. Many years ago now - back in the 1980s - I discovered a siding at the former Morris Cowley station in Oxford that was laid in double-headed rail with chairs marked 'DN&SR'. It was relaid shortly afterwards with modern track when the site was upgraded to a Freight Terminal.
Gerry
Gerry
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Tim V
- Posts: 2870
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
The canopies seen here in 1978.
And the way to the factory
And the way to the factory
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Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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martin goodall
- Posts: 1425
- Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Gerry beat me to it, but I was going to say that when I went past Keynsham on Monday evening, there were no sleepers there at all, just bare track bed.
Our intention had been to take the train to Bath, but we learnt of the total occupation a few days earlier, and so had no alternative but to crawl out of Bristol on the Bath Road, and admire the grass growing (and paint drying) en route.
Our intention had been to take the train to Bath, but we learnt of the total occupation a few days earlier, and so had no alternative but to crawl out of Bristol on the Bath Road, and admire the grass growing (and paint drying) en route.
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mjmcmullan
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Thank you Gerry, Martin and Tim for your information and photos. It is very much appreciated and really helps build up my references for modelling. The use of the rail for main and then secondly for branches is very interesting as the line to the Fry's factory built in the mid 20s has 9' if not 10' sleepers! I have seen photos of the restored Sentinel painted but yet to have the Fry's and SOMERDALE graphics.
I have obtained a kit of the Sentinel from RT models to use on the layout as well as a couple of MONSTERS to create the Fry's Show train. All I need are the 247 Developments (which have been discontinued) or Bettabitz sides for a diagram H2 clerestory to make the centre cafe car. Does anyone have a spare set they aren't using??
Gerry I see the photo from the bridge looking west towards Bristol and note that you mention that the shelters have been demolished. I would be very disappointed if they have as I only received the notice from the council yesterday 12th April that they had approved the demolition. if the shelters are still there on the Bath side of the road bridge would you be able to take some measurements of the size of the supporting columns, the distance between the columns and the depth of the open web joist rafters.
Thanks
Michael
I have obtained a kit of the Sentinel from RT models to use on the layout as well as a couple of MONSTERS to create the Fry's Show train. All I need are the 247 Developments (which have been discontinued) or Bettabitz sides for a diagram H2 clerestory to make the centre cafe car. Does anyone have a spare set they aren't using??
Gerry I see the photo from the bridge looking west towards Bristol and note that you mention that the shelters have been demolished. I would be very disappointed if they have as I only received the notice from the council yesterday 12th April that they had approved the demolition. if the shelters are still there on the Bath side of the road bridge would you be able to take some measurements of the size of the supporting columns, the distance between the columns and the depth of the open web joist rafters.
Thanks
Michael
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Bulwell Hall
Re: Sleeper length Keynsham 1932
Hi Micheal
Very sorry to have to inform you that the GWR shelters at Keynsham have been demolished and are no more - there is just a void where they once were! There is so little of GWR origin now remaining at the site that you would hardly recognise it as a former Great Western Railway station although it is now of course, a very current GWR station!
You are aware I expect that the former GWR iron footbridge from Keynsham is currently in use by the South Devon Railway at Buckfastleigh? Good luck with your researches and sorry not to be able to assist with information on the canopies.
Gerry
Very sorry to have to inform you that the GWR shelters at Keynsham have been demolished and are no more - there is just a void where they once were! There is so little of GWR origin now remaining at the site that you would hardly recognise it as a former Great Western Railway station although it is now of course, a very current GWR station!
You are aware I expect that the former GWR iron footbridge from Keynsham is currently in use by the South Devon Railway at Buckfastleigh? Good luck with your researches and sorry not to be able to assist with information on the canopies.
Gerry
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