Building a Double Slip

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
billbedford
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby billbedford » Sun May 01, 2016 9:29 am

Maybe, but I've heard stories about baseboards being mishandled (i.e. dropped) when being taken to shows and all the solder joints on rivet and ply track breaking.....
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun May 01, 2016 10:14 am

billbedford wrote:Maybe, but I've heard stories about baseboards being mishandled (i.e. dropped) when being taken to shows and all the solder joints on rivet and ply track breaking.....

And do you believe that Bill? it would have to be spectacularly poor soldering.
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jim s-w
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby jim s-w » Sun May 01, 2016 2:16 pm

billbedford wrote:Maybe, but I've heard stories about baseboards being mishandled (i.e. dropped) when being taken to shows and all the solder joints on rivet and ply track breaking.....


You'd probably believe someone if they told you gullible wasn't in the dictionary too Bill! :D

Philip Hall
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Philip Hall » Sun May 01, 2016 2:18 pm

I would have thought that a glued joint (chairs to wooden sleepers) would be more prone to shock damage. But then, the late Douglas Smith proved that such joints were indeed plenty strong enough for our purposes.

Philip

billbedford
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby billbedford » Mon May 02, 2016 8:27 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
billbedford wrote:Maybe, but I've heard stories about baseboards being mishandled (i.e. dropped) when being taken to shows and all the solder joints on rivet and ply track breaking.....

And do you believe that Bill? it would have to be spectacularly poor soldering.


Of course I believed it. There is really no reason for people to makeup stories of heroic track soldering session on the eve of shows without there being some basis for them in reality.
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Enigma
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Enigma » Mon May 02, 2016 9:03 am

Could have been steel rail on nickel plated rivets. Not a good combination I would imagine. There was a large bag of nickel plated rivets on the 'pre-owned' stand at S4N - but I declined to purchase them.

Anyway, back to topic. I have fitted the vees and the first stock rail, now on with filing up the double blade ended knuckle rails. Do you bend the knuckle before or after filing?

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 02, 2016 9:12 am

Interesting, I have never seen nickel plated rivets, the original P4 ones were tinned steel, and all of the others I have seen have been brass. I have used both without problems.
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Enigma » Mon May 02, 2016 10:20 am

Well, I was told they were nickel plated but I suppose they could have been tinned steel.

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Paul Willis
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Paul Willis » Wed May 04, 2016 6:18 am

dclift wrote:I have a large number of K&L chairs, purchased from the widow of a deceased member of the Melbourne Finescale Modellers Group some years ago. When I came to use them there was a mortality rate of over 50 % on being threaded onto rail, no matter how much chamfer I put on the rail. The embrittlement of many plastics as they age is a well know phenomenon and has also affected some of my ancient kit-built models. Like Paul, I now have a plentiful supply of half chairs.


I'll just confirm that I have had exactly the same experience with K&L chairs.

I purchased a quantity from eBay a couple of months ago, and using them on a gash bit of track, they tended to fall in half as soon as disturbed from the sprue. It's no big deal because there is always something that they can be used for, but I'll be more careful and more likely to go for C&L in preference over K&L in future.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed May 04, 2016 8:58 am

Flymo748 wrote:I'll just confirm that I have had exactly the same experience with K&L chairs. I purchased a quantity from eBay a couple of months ago, and using them on a gash bit of track, they tended to fall in half as soon as disturbed from the sprue.

Heat treatment may help. Or not. Give them 10 minutes in a pan of boiling water, or half an hour on a tray in a low oven. Don't overdo it, obviously.

Just something worth a try.

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby dclift » Thu May 05, 2016 12:26 am

Martin Wynne wrote:
Heat treatment may help. Or not. Give them 10 minutes in a pan of boiling water, or half an hour on a tray in a low oven.

I tried this suggestion with little hope of success. Fifteen minutes in boiling water did not improve matters. In fact it probably made the chairs even more brittle. In my previous life I was a university chemistry academic and, though I have to admit that polymer chemistry was far from my area of expertise, I am aware that many commercial plastics contain ingredients that promote flexibility. Over time these leach out rendering the polymer increasingly brittle with age. I suspect that the boiling water treatment probably removed what little plasiciser remained. I also have some Alan Gibson chairs, though where they came from and who actually manufactured them I cannot recall, but they too are quite brittle. Even C&L chairs, which are of more recent manufacture, seem to become less supple as they age, though they are not yet causing a problem. I think the moral is not to mature them with the numerous other items that we all seem to acquire over the years, but use them pretty promptly after purchase. But then, we could say that of most of the contents of our maturing cupboards, couldn't we? I am currently working on some coaches that I purchased when I lived in London in 1971, then are those whitemetal kits that I bought in the sixties, or was it the fifties?
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Philip Hall » Thu May 05, 2016 10:58 am

If David's chairs were from Alan Gibson they would almost certainly be original K&L productions. I think that Alan sold them first and then Len Newman went it alone as K&L, later becoming C&L. I too have many older C&L chairs that I never gave a thought to as regards their longevity.

Following on from this, has anyone any long term experience of what these chairs are like once they are installed? Are we finding that they have a finite life? If so, and the problem is also endemic to current production, then track built now could have a limited life span. Douglas Smith's experiments in MRJ years ago proved that the chairs were plenty tough enough when he tested them, but what about 10 or 20 years later? This is becoming a concern to me as the new layout gets nearer to construction and I really only want to put the trackwork down once. I do not intend to build another as I veer towards the state pension age...

Philip

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby dclift » Thu May 05, 2016 12:42 pm

Philip, although it is highly likely that chairs manufactured today will become brittle in twenty years' time, I do not see this as a problem if they are already part of your track. It is applying force to them that causes them to break, and once they are safely in place they should be quite happy to stay there. Of course, if you repeat Douglas Smith's experiment in twenty years' time with chairs affixed to their sleepers today, you might expect them to fail due to embrittlement, but I think it unlikely that anyone would want to put this to the test. In short, I don't think that you need to worry as long as you make up your track within a couple of years of purchasing the chairs. The sooner the better in fact, as I should like to see it made and laid by the time I am in England in 2018 or 2019.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu May 05, 2016 12:49 pm

Is this the first model product to need a "Best Before" date on the label?

Some retailers' stocks can be very old.

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Philip Hall
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Philip Hall » Thu May 05, 2016 1:22 pm

The sooner the better in fact, as I should like to see it made and laid by the time I am in England in 2018 or 2019.


David, as you wrote that I was concious of a pig flying around the workshop. Probably not in 2017 when you are next here, but quite possibly (I had to duck because of that pig again) on your next visit...

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Enigma » Thu May 05, 2016 7:39 pm

Construction is now virtually complete! I'm currently struggling to fit the 'knuckle' check rails without unsoldering the rails around them. I'll fit a smaller soldering tip tomorrow and try again. All in all, once I'd looked again at the Digest instructions and broken the build down into various sections, it wasn't as bad as expected. A bit (!) of frustration crept in now and again (and again and again etc.) but I wouldn't dismiss me repeating the excercise. All I have to do now is solvent the chairs to sleepers and fit the slide chairs (of which there are a lot), probably with Araldite as they need to be attached to the rails to give the assembly strength. Then I have to get it all off the template without it falling apart....................

DavidM
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby DavidM » Thu May 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Following on from this, has anyone any long term experience of what these chairs are like once they are installed? Are we finding that they have a finite life? If so, and the problem is also endemic to current production, then track built now could have a limited life span.


Philip, I have recently "decommissioned" a test track that I built in early 1990 just after moving to Sydney. It included a turnout built using early C&L chairs fixed with butanone to ply sleepers. The test track was laid onto 18mm MDF which has warped badly (heat & humidity) and the early-style Exactoscale TOU has also failed so I decided to scrap the test track in favour of a new larger one currently being built. The chairs are still intact and quite robust and well-fixed to the ply sleepers. I'm pretty sure the chairs were some of Len's earlier version supplied by C&L as the earlier ones marketed by Alan Gibson (K&L) were darker in colour.

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Philip Hall » Fri May 06, 2016 1:41 pm

David, that's encouraging enough for me not to have to worry about this. Your chairs were all manufactured by Len Newman, either as K&L or later C&L, and I don't recall anything about the plastic having changed. So although I have a selection, I think all should be well. Many thanks.

Philip

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Enigma » Thu May 12, 2016 4:00 pm

The brittle K&L ones I have seem to be a slightly darker brown than the C&L ones. They are very brittle and certainly 'ping' apart when cut into inside and outside halves through the rail slot with a scalpel. I have used 'halves' in various butchered shapes to fit around filed down rivets and in awkward places and they seem to attach well with Butanone. The proof will come when I try to peel the complete unit from the template.

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby dclift » Sat May 14, 2016 1:09 am

There is certainly a marked colour variation in the plastic used for chairs from K&L, Alan Gibson and C&L. The photograph shows, from left to right:
K&L,
K&L after being subjected to the boiling water treatment, which leached out the dye as well as the plasticiser, leaving the sprue an off-white colour,
Alan Gibson
C&L as currently available.

In making a further exploration of my box of chairs, all of which are two bolt for GW, I found that the packs of Alan Gibson chairs each contain an A4 sheet of instructions for their use in making plain track and turnouts, together with other useful information for the novice track builder. The instructions open with the words "This system is moulded in a plastic known as ABS ..." and conclude with "THE ITEMS IN THIS PACK ARE MANUFACTURED BY K & L COMPONENTS" (in capitals, lest there be any doubt!). I am not sure which is the more prototypical, and, being in Australia have no opportunity to examine the prototype.
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2 bolt chairs.jpg
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dclift
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby dclift » Sat May 14, 2016 2:47 am

I am not sure which is the more prototypical, and, being in Australia have no opportunity to examine the prototype.

Perhaps you are thinking that the last part of my previous post is something of a non sequitur. This is because, in posting it I somehow omitted a sentence. What I meant to write was:
The C&L chairs are noticeably larger than those from K&L/Gibson and have less rounded corners to their bases. I am not sure which is the more prototypical, and, being in Australia have no opportunity to examine the prototype.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat May 14, 2016 8:43 am

Perhaps this will help.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R3798A.pdf
Several pages of chair drawings in the notes
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/permanent_way_notes.htm
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stephenfreeman
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby stephenfreeman » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:31 am

Hi,
In the photo the chairs labelled as C&L are of course originally the Exactoscale ones. The original pattern K&L now C&L are still available.

From photos, the GWR appear to have used both patterns, so it's up to you which you use. The Exactoscale version has the better bolt detail, as you would expect, since the molds are much newer.

The biggest problem facing you is the non availability of 2 bolt Slide Chairs, and to compound matters further , you probably need both types of running chairs to fabricate a representation for check rail chairs, since looking at photos, the inner parts have the rounded corners, with the outer ones the squarer!

For photos and prototype info I would recommend DJ Smiths book on GWR Switch and Crossing Practice, published by the Great Western Study Group.
Stephen Freeman
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dclift
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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby dclift » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:38 am

stephenfreeman wrote
The biggest problem facing you is the non availability of 2 bolt Slide Chairs

I guess it might be unreasonable to expect C&L to produce several varieties of slide chairs. Though this might horrify some, I have been using their four bolt slide chairs in both abs and brass, these apparently being all that are available. Likewise I have used their check rail chairs despite their lack of Great-western-ness. It seems that none of the available chairs are an exact match for those illustrated in the drawings to which Keith kindly pointed me (many thanks Keith), but some are closer than others.

I can also highly recommend David Smith's book which is a mine of interesting, and frequently useful, information, though it does tend to point up the shortcomings of one's own efforts.
David Clift.

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Re: Building a Double Slip

Postby Enigma » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:39 pm

I eventually completed the DS some time ago but only recently took the plunge to test it electrically with a loco. It worked! I used a pannier chassis as this and a 14xx 0-4-2 should be the only types of steam loco on the line. However, it's my train set so..................!
download/file.php?mode=view&id=12605
The white 'things' are lumps of Evergreen strip which will be carved into representations of special chairs etc. - and a coat of paint will help disguise any irregularities!

Now all I've got to do is lay it, wire it and fit tie bars.

And build the rest of the layout........................
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Double Slip.5.A.jpg


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