Three Way Turnout

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
Armchair Modeller

Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:20 pm

I fancy doing a 3-way turnout, mainly for the fun of it, but probably ultimately for my layout. Particularly, I am open to ideas on how to replicate the prototype's tiebar arrangement (operational or otherwise) and how to go about point blade operation. Prototypically, the point blades would be hinged, with a complex tiebar arrangement , like this one on the Templot site, (borrowed with thanks!)

Image

I have also seen a similar drawing of an LSWR one, but without the joggles in the rails.

My railway is freelance, so slavish replication of this particular design is not essential. However, it would be nice to be able to replicate the feature of the tiebars (dummy or operational) threaded through the rails. Everything else I am happy I can cope with. The main problem I foresee is getting the prototype tiebars to remain attached to the point blades over long-term use. Others include getting a tiebar that is strong, yet flexible - and how to provide insulation gaps in the tiebars.

I have a feeling that silver soldering might provide a partial solution to my problems (must get a copy of the latest MRJ!)

I also wonder out of curiosity if anyone has already done one of these successfully?

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:53 pm

Well wortrh finding the CLAG website.........

http://www.clag.org.uk/green14.html

They have a five way turnout and whilst the website does not set out much in the way of detail to your questions, I anticipate Russ will be along shortly........

and PS; if you have not found the CLAG website more generally, there is lots and lots on it. Just loooking for this article, I have found a couple of things to look at.......
Mark Tatlow

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:03 pm

I have not tried to replicate that style of tie bar, mine has a pair of the original Studiolith TOUs and the connection to the inner switchblades is something of a problem which has needed refixing several times over the years, one of those things that really needs doing properly but I have yet to get a flash of inspiration to try. Tony Wilkins has two on Green Street but I don't know how he did his. Just might be something about it on the CLAG website.
Sorry not much help.
Regards

PS. I have one photo of a 3 way where the outer pair of blades are longer, often thought that would be easier to set up as there is clear access to all 4 blades, on the downside a wheelset has to negotiate both blade ends in succession increasing the derailment risk. Probably why the design is comparitively rare.
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Keith
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Many thanks for the replies, gentlemen!

I am a great admirer of Tony Wilkins' work. I learnt a lot from his track building seminars at Nottingham Area Group meetings a few years back. His 5-way turnout is fascinating. It appears to have representations of relatively modern point blades and tiebars though - appropriate for a 1960s layout but having little in common with the GER design.

Regarding the tiebars, I am thinking about experimenting with thin tubing. This could be soldered to the point blades and the two parts linked together with some kind of insulating material glued inside the tubing. Very thin tubing seems to be available, so maybe worth a try. If it works, I could be confident of operating the points in a more or less prototypical way - using the operating rods themselves to shift the blades from side to side.

As for the hinged end of the point blades, I still haven't a clue as yet. These short point blades hinged at a fishplated joint, which must have been quite distinctive to look at - very different to the later style where the rail flexes as it is pushed from side to side. The hinge point is in thin air, midway between sleepers, so it would be difficult to disguise a pivot below the rail, for example. Maybe I could assemble something that works like the real thing, with brass fishplates and wire through holes in the rails to represent the fishplate bolts? I doubt it would be very robust though. Perhaps I need to experiment a little.

The crossing end of the pointwork seems relatively straightforward in comparison, so I have no concerns about that at the moment.

Keith, I would be very interested to see your photo of the different style you mention. Is it possible to publish it on here?

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John Donnelly
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:30 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Regarding the tiebars, I am thinking about experimenting with thin tubing. This could be soldered to the point blades and the two parts linked together with some kind of insulating material glued inside the tubing. Very thin tubing seems to be available, so maybe worth a try.


If I remember correctly, there is an article in MRJ (albeit for 7mm track work) where the author built the tie bars using thin tubing with a length of styrene rod acting as the insulator between the two sides...

Just checked, it is MRJ 227, the article is entitled 'Floating Scale Pointwork'

John

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:32 pm

Keith, I would be very interested to see your photo of the different style you mention. Is it possible to publish it on here?
I'll have to find it first, somewhere in my bookshelf!
Regards
Regards
Keith
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:41 pm

Keith, please don't bother if it is a lot of trouble - it was only of academic interest and will probably in no way influence my model.

John, many thanks for that - I will try and find a copy. It is encouraging to hear that someone else found the idea worth trying.

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:39 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Keith, please don't bother if it is a lot of trouble - it was only of academic interest and will probably in no way influence my model.

since I'm just keeping warm nursing a cold I thought I may as well look. It had to be in Midland Record or Modellers' Backtrack so I started with the record.
Found it on page 65 of Issue 8, 1967, the photo is dated 1892. I'll fire up the scanner and see what I can get from it.
The rodding appears very similar to your GER drawing.
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:35 pm

Attached is an extract from the Midland Record picture with acknowlegements to Bob Essery and Jack Braithwaite. To find out more get hold of Midland Record 8,
Regards
MR8-65a-mod2.jpeg
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Regards
Keith
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:44 pm

Many thanks Keith. That does have features similar to the GER drawing, so is of far greater interest than I could possibly have imagined.

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Best wishes

Richard

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Knuckles
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:46 pm

Looking at that drawing, other drawings and comparing models it seems there are many different stretcher bar versions.

I've been told in the past to not use C&L stretcher bars or at least not for operation as apparently they are weak. I also get the impression many do not like them as they are less realistic and I hqve never seen them on any layout, although they are good enough for me. Is this view that they are disfavoured mostly true?

A lot seem to use Ambis or - can't remember but it is the other popular option often used - and today I dug out my hard copies of Scalefour News and had a pleasant read. Some people use modified bars and others operate them from the side.

On my mini layout all but one are operated from.underneither with my own bodged stretcher bar method. I found this a pig to get them to work properly but they do now mostly.

One turnout is operated side acting as I couldn't fit a Tortoise underneither I scratch built a rough representation of an angle crank and it works more reliably than the others.

In these magazines I saw several point blades that had 2 stretcher bars and what looked like a 3rd stretcher bar extending sideways under (or through) the rail as the operation linkage.

Just two questions if you could please answer them.

A) Is this a prototypical option in some areas, if so where?
B) Would 3 C&L stretcher bars be strong enough if configured this way as a side acting operation?

For my future layout I want things realistic but not everything has to be visually perfect. I am inconsistent where I go the mile and as I'm the only one building it I'm after some simplicity in a few areas.



Then I say I want to model point rodding, maybe some functional to the last one or two angle cranks at least making me look a liar!

I desire side acting turnout operation mostly.
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Paul Willis
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:10 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:Regarding the tiebars, I am thinking about experimenting with thin tubing. This could be soldered to the point blades and the two parts linked together with some kind of insulating material glued inside the tubing. Very thin tubing seems to be available, so maybe worth a try. If it works, I could be confident of operating the points in a more or less prototypical way - using the operating rods themselves to shift the blades from side to side.


We've been here before :-)

Have a look at the very convincing tiebars here: http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&hilit=cadhay&start=75#p39736

Chris has modelled some superb ones, and if you scroll down the topic you will find both instructions on how to make them, and pictures of just how good they look.

HTH
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Paul Willis
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:14 am

Armchair Modeller wrote: As for the hinged end of the point blades, I still haven't a clue as yet. These short point blades hinged at a fishplated joint, which must have been quite distinctive to look at - very different to the later style where the rail flexes as it is pushed from side to side. The hinge point is in thin air, midway between sleepers, so it would be difficult to disguise a pivot below the rail, for example. Maybe I could assemble something that works like the real thing, with brass fishplates and wire through holes in the rails to represent the fishplate bolts? I doubt it would be very robust though. Perhaps I need to experiment a little.


This is a challenge that I'm trying to solve as well. The GER used loose-heel switches, which in photos look very distinctive.

My current thinking is to use Colin Waite etched brass fishplates for the joint, and to solder them to the blade and the fixed rail. However they would only be soldered on one side of the rail. The other side would remain free. That would hopefully give enough flex for the blade to move without adopting a bend.

Of course, the untried aspect here is whether the repeated flexing of the joint led to fatigue and fracture in the fishplate over time.

I had thought of a loop of wire underneath between the two rails to add extra electrical continuity as a failsafe. Given that the GER typically practiced "deep ballasting" then it would be well hidden.

However these thoughts are not yet fully tested. I've on;y made a mock-up of them. Any other alternative approaches would be very much appreciated.

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:27 am

Knuckles wrote:A lot seem to use Ambis or - can't remember but it is the other popular option often used - and today I dug out my hard copies of Scalefour News and had a pleasant read. Some people use modified bars and others operate them from the side.


Masokits. Despite the reputation implied in the name, I find these straightforward to make, robust to use, and seem to tick all the boxes. They even make the setting of the point blade distance a doddle. They aren't the circular bar ones, but for the current need that I have for them, that doesn't matter.

I've been doing a bit of batch building of them, in anticipation of some major trackwork renewal on my demo board - I must to a write-up of a why and how of they, as a salutary lesson to others as they mock and laugh ;-)

Masokits tiebars assembled.JPG


You can see that they look rather lovely when assembled as well.

The most annoying element for me is cutting the initial strip of thin PCB. It's not difficult, it's just time-consuming is you are going to do it properly and carefully with repeated scoring with a scalpel blade. The result is worth the effort though.

Reminds me that I must order some more packs of these, just to keep in stock...

Cheers
Flymo
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:16 am

Masokits, that's what I was thinking of, thanks. :) Nice to hear from you too, has been ages since we spoke (or typed) last.

Opinions seem divided but these are pretty much the only two brands I ever seem to hear or read about for the most part. Are C&L's more simple ones just disliked or?

Any idea on my question in relation to using 3 C&L stretcher bars with one as a side acting thrower? I've seen photo's and models that look similar to this but as to how realistic or strong this is I don't know. It's only me building the layout track so I need to insert simplicity and speed in areas. People say don't use C&L stretchers as a throw but if there are 3 all together with one doing the throw it'd be a bit stronger I would have thought.

As for the ones in real life that look like this I am somewhat bemused because I haven't managed to pinpoint the prototype name of the railways that did it but have seen it a few times.

Any ideas?


Also I need to make a 3 way turnout for the layout so I'll be coming back to this thread one day!

My future layout I want to be pre-Grouping but a mix of reality and fiction so I'm ot too pedantic about all the details but I want to get enough right for it to be..well, acceptable I guess.
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:21 pm

I've used the C&L tiebars on my current layout and whilst, aesthetically, they aren't great, they've not failed over what must be hundreds of movements by now...

John

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:21 pm

Ambis Engineering list a rod type stretcher in their current price list (found in the downloads section) http://www.ambisengineering.co.uk/

Unfortunately I couldn't find any other details of them.

Jol

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:34 pm

Regarding stretcher bars generally, there seems to be little information easily available on the Internet. Tubular ones seem to have been the norm until the 1930s when flat bars seem to have gradually replaced them. Two pages of moderately useful info are as follows...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... tcher-bar/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... -patterns/

You could probably write a book on all the variations and changes over time, I guess!

Back to the main plot...............

I now have a copy of MRJ 227, as recommended by John Donnelly (many thanks John). The article is about 7mm scale track, so real heavy engineering compared to 4mm scale, but very thought provoking nevertheless. Thanks also to Flymo for the link to CDGFife's idea viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&hilit=cadhay&start=75#p39736. Both suggest that the brass tube idea for stretcher/tie bars has merit. The current MRJ article on silver soldering quickly implies that very thin brass is likely to quickly melt away in the flame of the torch, so maybe silver soldering is not the best way to achieve reliability.

I think the best way to proceed is to do a bit of experimentation to see what can be done. The tie bars (or stretcher bars) and the pivot are the two things I need to test. Knocking up a few rail joints to see how the pivot might work - and therefore how much resistance the tiebars will have to fight against - sounds to me like a good place to start. Something that can be done with little time or effort and at minimal cost with available materials.

Ideas I have include -

Soldered brass fishplates to see how well they flex.
Brass fishplates with the point blade loose, not soldered.
Brass fishplates with holes drilled through the fishplates and the point blade. Wire inserted through the holes, soldered to the fishplates only.
Rod coming up from a piece of tubing set into the baseboard and soldered to the blunt end of the point blade.

I am sure I can come up with even crazier ones in due course. Just give me time :?

Any other clever ideas, please let me know and I will happily try them.

I am currently finishing off a bit of pointwork in another scale, but as soon as that is finished, let battle commence!

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:30 pm

Brass fishplates with holes drilled through the fishplates and the point blade. Wire inserted through the holes, soldered to the fishplates only.


A fiddle but if you want joined non flexing point blades I think out of your suggestions this would probably work best, not that I know anything about track as I'm a very good question machine and probably come across as a pest at the best of times. Oh well. :?

You mentioned tubular stretchers were more popular until around the 30's. The model I want to make I want to base the track around early 20's so this gives good excuse. I still have more research to do though like what methods what railway companies used in what time zones etc.
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:49 pm

Your questions are no problem at all, Knuckles - often very thought provoking, which has to be good!

Be careful with that time zone thing though - if you are not careful you will end up with flat-bottomed track and all your questions will have been in vain ;)

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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:32 pm

Eeeeugh. :shock:

Bullhead only...I like bulls me.
Taste great with onions and gravy.

Never tried a bulls' head though.

...

Ah, I can think different from others sometimes but I can also be annoying. I try not to be though.
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:55 pm

Tubular ones seem to have been the norm until the 1930s when flat bars seem to have gradually replaced them.

Yes, but for 'tubular' read 'forged round bars', never say never but I would be surprised if you found any made of tube.
Regards
Regards
Keith
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:14 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Yes, but for 'tubular' read 'forged round bars', never say never but I would be surprised if you found any made of tube.
Regards


Why did they use forgeries?

Sorry Keith, but I had to ask ;) Many thanks for your correction :thumb

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Paul Willis
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:26 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:I think the best way to proceed is to do a bit of experimentation to see what can be done. The tie bars (or stretcher bars) and the pivot are the two things I need to test. Knocking up a few rail joints to see how the pivot might work - and therefore how much resistance the tiebars will have to fight against - sounds to me like a good place to start. Something that can be done with little time or effort and at minimal cost with available materials.

Ideas I have include -

Soldered brass fishplates to see how well they flex.
Brass fishplates with the point blade loose, not soldered.
Brass fishplates with holes drilled through the fishplates and the point blade. Wire inserted through the holes, soldered to the fishplates only.
Rod coming up from a piece of tubing set into the baseboard and soldered to the blunt end of the point blade.

I am sure I can come up with even crazier ones in due course. Just give me time :?


One other thing that I have tried - and I'm blowed if I can find which bit of track it is on - is to use phosphor bronze strip.

This is straightforwardly the same stuff that is sold in packets for use as pickups on locomotives. My theory is that it is less susceptible to fatigue than brass would be.

Having cut an appropriately sized piece, I used a rivet press to simulate the four fishplate bolt-heads that you normally find. Of course they are round and not square in shape, but applying the three-foot rule...

I hope this helps - it's another suggestion to add to your list.
Cheers
Flymo
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Re: Three Way Turnout

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:49 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:Yes, but for 'tubular' read 'forged round bars', never say never but I would be surprised if you found any made of tube.
Regards


Why did they use forgeries?

Sorry Keith, but I had to ask ;) Many thanks for your correction :thumb


You're not going to forge a good relationship like that.

regards

Alan


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