(RESOLVED) Anyone like to guess what this is...?

[Derek]

OK I admit defeat. I have tried asking if anyone on Templot forum might know, NER and LNER forums. Defeated. Anyone care to guess what this is???

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p86 ... #h3c7e7b26

The road that the tank is on bisects with the one between the two groups of people as a diamond, according to NER diagrams.

The very long checkrail nearest the camera (7 chairs for what seems to be a A6 or similar?) is one side of the otherwise straight side behind the camera- its toe is just before it joins with the road the tank is on.

If you look at the turnout just behind the tank, there is a second curve- does anyone care to suggest what that might be?

Also note the trap/catch behind the tank (it MIGHT have a neighbour on the other running rail and I just can't see it). If it goes through the diamond behind it then it runs onto the main running line so it's fair to say that there are no more catches on that point (in fact from other photos I can be sure of this). Note that the road closest to the camera and the one behind it don't have a catch/trap and as they then share the tank road we know they aren't trapped.

So... I am wondering if that second curve is some form of interlaced switch for an outside slip rather than the diamond in the diagram. The slip of course could be acting as a run off road in lieu of a catch/trap.

This dilemma has formed a life of its own and is currently the subject of a multi-way discussion by railway modellers, historians and others.

Since Mr Bolton taught me the error of my ways, I am just about ready to start building "live" and this one thing will change the whole geometry of what I am going to build.

Any answers appreciated. There is more detail about alternatives on Templot forum.

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?i ... orum_id=11

Many thanks (I will write anyone into my will if they can solve this)
Derek

[steamraiser]

Is it another trap point built into the diamond?

Gordon A
Bristol

[Derek]

Thanks for the suggestion, Gordon.

That does seem to be the most common response thus far. I am not sure, although I did see a trap/turnout combination in a photograph on Templot.com so I suppose it's possible.

Thanks
Derek

[Derek]

PS look at the aforementioned turnout. Missing wings???

[grovenor-2685]

PS look at the aforementioned turnout. Missing wings???

What turnout?

I am afraid there is not enough of the diamond area visible in that photo to reach any sort of firm conclusion.
Regards

[Derek]

The one about 30ft behind the A8.

Documents record that at the toe of that turnout there is the diamond which is used to cross the A8's road with the one between those groups of blokes.

You're right that there's no chance of a firm conclusion without a closer photograph or speaking to someone that actually remembers it.

You're an experienced chap- if YOU were building the real thing and you had to get three roads down to one, cross another at a blunt angle etc, you could put the trap/catch as shown but there must be something to trap the right two roads. Clearly there's nothing beyond the diamond or the trap next to the A8 wouldn't be needed.

So how do you trap those two roads? The only thing I can think of myself (and forgive if the terminology goes awry) is that the turnout already mentioned is interlaced as a 'barry slip' with the leading turnout (that I can't see but suspect is there) that forms the lead of an outside slip.

Does that sound plausible? I don't think I'm ever going to know for certain so it's best guess. And my guess is that the diagram is wrong and that diamond should be a slip.

[grovenor-2685]

The one about 30ft behind the A8.

Going by where you have shown the camera on the templot forum that should be the diamond rather than a turnout, maybe you should revamp your templot plan to show where you think the loco, dolly and trap point are. At the moment I am not getting a clear enough picture to extrapolate from.
Maybe you should attract the attention of Mick Nicholson? A topic on RMweb with NER and signalling in the title should do it.
Regards

[Derek]

Thanks for looking at it Keith.

I have just traced the lines using paint shop and worked out where the diamond is (whether the diamond is part of a slip or just a plain diamond I can't say).

However someone has just emailed me a link to signalbox.org diagram that shows there were switches in that area, which suggests that a slip is right.

I will go and update the Templot drawing and see where I go from there.

I have seen the Hull thread and that's where I remembered about this Barry slip arrangement- I didn't realise the (L)NER used them at all.

Thanks again for your time.

[grovenor-2685]

Whitby does not look anything like it on the signalbox diagram, which signal box is it?
Regards

[Derek]

This is under the control of Bog Hall, which controlled movements into the engine stable and goods shed.

http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=163

The dotted lines lower left is the area in question. From a schematic point of view it is incorrect inasmuch as the order of turnouts is incorrect- for certain the last one pointing downwards should be be further left- that's confirmed by photographs.

This is Whitby Town Box (it fits onto the left of the one above, but in this diagram runs left to right- so imagine it upside down)

http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=173

This one is clearer and is pretty accurate as far as I can see.

[billbedford]

What is the number of the ground signal that's visible in the photo?

I can't reconcile the number of tracks shown in the photo with those in the diagram.

[Derek]

Hello Bill

Many thanks for making that point.

I think Keith is probably right in that I need to re-draw what I think it is in Templot, and then ask again for comments.

I know this particular part was heavily re-built in 1920 or so and was already quite restricted in space, so they might have introduced quite complex bespoke track not normally justified in a yard area just because of space limitations.

Again my thanks for the responses. I will stick thy head over the parapet again when I have a Templot plan to show.

[Derek]

I've cracked it...

Thanks to documents supplied by a good chap named Alan and photos on the excellent David Hey site, I can conclude that it is a simple diamond protected by a trap on each side of the turnout closest to the camera.- as suggested by Steamraiser- thanks.

I conclude this from www.davidheyscollection.com/page20.htm - scroll down to the Goathland picture and then look right to the water tower. The turnout in front has a very similar arrangement and being only 9 miles from Whitby and around the same era, makes me convinced that I now know what I am looking at. This confirms the illustration in Alan's diagram.

So I suppose this means I've got to actually start building something now...

Thanks for the responses chaps.