Point Rodding

[Kos]

Hi
I'm following Steve Halls' articles in MRJs 113/5 and he refers to coil of 0.5mm square section brass for point rodding. Anyone know where to find some, or equivalent?
Thanks

[jim s-w]

Hi Kos

I don't know about coils but you can get straight sections from MSE

HTH

Jim

[Jol Wilkinson]

I have some coiled .5mm brass square which came from Eileens Emporium some years ago, but I don't know if they still supply it.

I prefer to use the .4mm n/s square strip from Wizard/MSE. It is supplies in straight 30cm lengths, but readily joined by filing a chamfer at the ends to be butt joined and soldering them together.

[Kos]

Thanks everyone for replying. What a twerp (me, that is) - both 0.5mm squared brass and 0.4mm squared n/s are still sold as reported. My problem was failing to find my way around the Eileen's and Wizard websites, and giving up too easily.

Anyway, orders have been placed!

Many thanks, Stuart

[grovenor-2685]

A set of detail photos of point rodding and signal wires taken by Rod Cameron at Bridgenorth in 2007 and originally published on RMweb are now available on my website as they are no longer accessible on RMweb.
See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/resources/rodding.htm

Additional contributions will be welcomed.
Regards

[Terry Bendall]

A set of detail photos of point rodding and signal wires taken by Rod Cameron at Bridgenorth in 2007 and originally published on RMweb are now available on my website as they are no longer accessible on RMweb.

These are very useful - thanks for the link Keith. Do they represent GWR practice or BR? Steve Hall's articles in MRJ 115 and 115 on point rodding also have some useful pictures of prototype installations.

Terry Bendall

[grovenor-2685]

As a preserved/tourist line I suppose they use whatever they can get, most of the bits look like Western designs but obviously the later version for channel rodding and I'm not sure what date the change from round rods to channel was made on the Western.
Regards

[Tim V]

Those pictures show Western rodding.

The drawing in my possession of channel rodding is dated 15/12/1932, so that could be a beginning date.

Note that only NEW installations/alterations would be made with channel rodding, Round rodding is still in use on the preserved network, though not at Bridgnorth.

[John Fitton]

Very nice pictures if I may say. What is the purpose of the cover shown in the (unnumbered) shots between 19 and 24?

John

[Alan Turner]

Very nice pictures if I may say. What is the purpose of the cover shown in the (unnumbered) shots between 19 and 24?

John

To protect the Facing Point lock mechanism from trains passing over it and dropping ash and such like into the mechanism.

regards

Alan

[John Fitton]

Very nice pictures if I may say. What is the purpose of the cover shown in the (unnumbered) shots between 19 and 24?

John

To protect the Facing Point lock mechanism from trains passing over it and dropping ash and such like into the mechanism.

regards

Alan

Thanks Alan.

John

[Terry Bendall]

What is the purpose of the cover shown in the (unnumbered) shots between 19 and 24?

My understanding is that on contemporary installations it also protects the installation from being damaged by tamping machines. If you are modelling this period it does of course mean that you can get away with modelling just the cover and the rodding beyond it since the locking mechanism will not be seen. Some of course would choose to include it just because it is there. On Elcot Road we decided that the cover on one of the FPLs had been removed for maintenance so the cosmetic FPL can be seen.

Terry Bendall

[John Fitton]

What is the purpose of the cover shown in the (unnumbered) shots between 19 and 24?

My understanding is that on contemporary installations it also protects the installation from being damaged by tamping machines. If you are modelling this period it does of course mean that you can get away with modelling just the cover and the rodding beyond it since the locking mechanism will not be seen. Some of course would choose to include it just because it is there. On Elcot Road we decided that the cover on one of the FPLs had been removed for maintenance so the cosmetic FPL can be seen.

Terry Bendall

Thanks Terry. I model BR blue period so this sounds like a good application.

John

[grovenor-2685]

Yes, facing point lock covers, whether steel as in the pic or wooden as you will see in older pics were intended to limit damage from dangling equipment on trains such as coupling chains as well as firebox ash etc. I don't think they would help much with tamping machines as the tines go in close to the rail and away from the cover, the drive and detection rods were most at risk and machine tamping of the sleepers by the toe would not be possible unless the rods were removed.

The picture numbers were just an aide to me for adding the links, I had intended to remove them, but seeing the value for reference I have now serially numbered all of the pics.
Regards

[Knuckles]

A wee question that I think will be hard to answer. Hope not though but it is a bit involved and subjective on layout.

To establish what point rods and what type of angle cranks and etcetera's go where is it simply a case of looking at photographs of different places, following the wires and doing what seems logical or is there more to it?

I ask because I have read several books on signalling and authough they go into it it is never covered comprehensively enough for me to truly get a grasp on things.

I care because it looks so darn good when built on a layout and very much want to get it right on my upcoming propper P4 layout attempt. Finding solid hard fast rules and examples on what goes where seems to yeald results of "have a look it is obvious" yet it is only obvious sometimes. With different viable choices and possible rules it is a complete research subject in and of itself. A subject with which I have found very enjoyable researching but as to settling my mind and coming to a solid image - lacking substantially.

Thinking of buying that new signalling book advertised in our magazine recently.


I have checked out Keith's link with much interest too. That helps.

[John Palmer]

Knuckles, I recommend you to refer to the Institute of Railway Signal Engineers' booklet "Mechanical Signalling Equipment (British Practice)", number 10 in the Institute's Green Book series. This provides much useful information about such matters as the lead off connections from signal boxes and the location of compensators within a rod run (and how, in some cases, to render compensators unnecessary by judicious arrangement of the cranks).

I purchased my copy from the Institute years ago, since when I have seen PDF reproductions of them online (I believe in IRSE Australasia's website). However, I think IRSE objected as copyright owner to the booklets being made available online, so they may no longer be accessible via t'Internet.

The Institute still makes the booklets available for purchase, though from what I can see from their downloaded Order Form the booklets have now been amalgamated into combined volumes, each such volume retailing at £20.00 to a non-member. Green Books Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 10 form one such volume; for further information download the Institute's Order Form at http://www.irse.org/public/itemsforsale.aspx.

Incidentally I note that the entirety of the Institute's Proceedings for the period 1913-2001 have been digitised by its Australasian branch and are available in DVD form at £35.00. That's quite tempting; I found some interesting information about LNER double blocking in an online library of the Proceedings some time ago.

<edit> If the signalling book to which you're referring is Jim Summers' "Signalling the Caledonian Railway" then do get a copy; can't recommend it too highly. </edit>

[grovenor-2685]

Start with this Scalefour Digest.
http://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/dl.php?f=23-6-5.pdf
Regards

[Knuckles]

Start with this Scalefour Digest.
http://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/dl.php?f=23-6-5.pdf
Regards

I saw this after I written the below. Thanks Keith, will have a look. I have looked at a lot of digests but I have a good forgetter.

Knuckles, I recommend you to refer to the Institute of Railway Signal Engineers' booklet "Mechanical Signalling Equipment (British Practice)", number 10 in the Institute's Green Book series.....

Ok, many thanks John for the advice, much appreciated.

I just tried to look but they require a membership to even view the material offered for sale - seems a silly way of doing it if you ask me. Usually I sniff at such a requirement and walk away and look elsewhere. I can understand some websites wanting an account to buy products but not to simply view them.

Ah well, my hand is forced. I have registered and have to wait a day or two before I can look and possible nab a copy.

Thanks again.

[John Palmer]

The Digest Sheet to which Keith refers appears to reproduce much of the applicable information in Green Book 10. If you have a general interest in signalling in the semaphore era, the combined volume I referred to contains much else of interest. For further details, click the 'Download order form' button on the page I linked. This will get you a zipped copy of a Word document containing details of all the Institute's publications. Some of the prices of what's on offer strike me as somewhat eye watering from a non-member's viewpoint!

[Knuckles]

The Digest Sheet to which Keith refers appears to reproduce much of the applicable information in Green Book 10. If you have a general interest in signalling in the semaphore era, the combined volume I referred to contains much else of interest. For further details, click the 'Download order form' button on the page I linked. This will get you a zipped copy of a Word document containing details of all the Institute's publications. Some of the prices of what's on offer strike me as somewhat eye watering from a non-member's viewpoint!

Ok thanks John. In a day or two when I'm able I will do.

I've just read the whole digest Keith directed me/us to and understood about 1/4 of it. That's a good start to me!

Studying the relational Figure 4&5 on the bottom of page two makes sense to me. I used to be a Data Cable Instillation Engineer and the principle looks the same in that, as long as the cables go where you need them you can route them however seems logical. Looking at Fig' 4&5 I'm getting the impression this is the same here?

I don't know if it is but it seems it. Is it?


Other parts of the digest I'll have to eat again to digest it. That's not me trying to be funny but it makes sense.





EDIT: The layout I will be making is at the bottom of the linked page...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2133&start=75

Obviously signalling etc will need to be worked out before rodding and signal box size are. I have the all out attitude for this particular layout and want to model it so it can fit two different themes. My fictional NWR / RWS theme and also a Pre-Grouping Junction that gives the usual excuse of running many different railway companies all at once. 1923 is the main date in mind because as a period the 20's and 30's interest me greatly, as does early American Blues music of the same time. As the LNWR and L&YR converged in 1922 and then was sucked into the LMS in 1923 it'll give me good excuse to have LNWR, L&YR, MR and as liveries weren't always repainted quickly some big four liveries too.

The bottom section hasn't been finalised as it is to be removable and also transition curves are something I haven't decided if I am going to try yet. One, because I'm not confidant I'll manage the mathematics and two, because it will likely knacker my plans in making the bottom section straight to fit several other scenes. (Future layouts and I like to film 'episodes' on my layouts.)

I planned it on Anyrail with Exactoscale P4 turnouts, a program I love very much. Maybe I should do it on Templot too? I tried that one before and did - not a little. All the video tutorials were out of date so I'd get so far and then, Poof, a button or function is missing. That was as far as I got.

I'd like to build it as planned but the curves as they are do worry me a tad so mulling still.

[grovenor-2685]

There is a bit more info on the IRSE booklets here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/signalli-IRSE.htm
Some years ago I made some of them available on my site, with permission, but that permission was withdrawn when the IRSE decided to start selling them again.
Regards

[Knuckles]

Thanks Keith, will check it out now.

Note, I just edited my above post with additional text.

[Martin Wynne]

Maybe I should do it on Templot too? I tried that one before and did - not a little. All the video tutorials were out of date so I'd get so far and then, Poof, a button or function is missing. That was as far as I got.

Hi Knuckles,

I'm sorry a lot of the Templot docs are out of date. Unfortunately writing the docs is a task 10 times greater than writing the program, and I have only so much time to spend on Templot.

The answer when you get stuck is to ask on the Templot Club forum -- lots of friendly help at: http://85a.co.uk/forum/

But not all the videos are out of date -- if you click the help > watch a video menu item, all the videos listed there are up to date.

If they won't play on your system, they are also available (in lower MP4 quality, sorry) on FlashBackConnect, to play on any device, for example:

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx ... zpft5UXUA2

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx ... dDu1OJJhA2

regards,

Martin.

[Knuckles]

Thanks Martin. I can imagine the write ups being a nightmare.

I managed to do a little bit but as I said the tutorials started to not match the program and I was truly buggered then!

I'll happily have a look at the new material soon as I would very much like go use Templot.

I'm in two minds weather to build the layout as designed using straight standard points to be easy and in my mind hopefully increase success rate (although no transition curves so guranteed fail?) or re-design the layout in templot so turnouts can flow better with a slight curve on things as was suggested earlier in that thread or just to tweak the geometry on the ends for transition curves.

Unsure.

[John Donnelly]

I would very much like go use Templot.

Stick with it. I'm still a relative beginner with Templot but, having just had to make use of it, I can thoroughly recommend the Templot forum for help.

John