On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

[Colin Parks]

That article by Tony Wilkins seemed to suggest that Copydex had caused all sorts of problems. One of those problems was that the track had shifted where Copydex had been used. Not sure how it would work as an adhesive for underlay but I have used natural rubber products including Copydex for many years and from my experience they have an effective lifespan of about 20 years if not exposed to sunlight.

Colin

[Andy W]

I love experimenting in this hobby. Trying out new techniques in areas like compensation; springing; current collection etc on stock is all part of the fun. However, I think when it comes to laying track, on what one hopes is a long lasting layout, I think I'd definitely err on the side of the "tried and proven". A wagon can be reworked to correct a failed compensation system - but relaying track is another thing.

[Martin Wynne]

An alternative to cork is balsa wood. Same ease of cutting with a craft knife, similar sound absorption, but a bit more rigid. So much so that you can build the track directly on it on the bench and transfer the whole thing to the baseboard, even ready ballasted if you like. There's then no problem with the track getting distorted as it is transferred from bench to baseboard.

Martin.

[Nestor]

Some very interesting points made here since my initial question.
For the current project, which has no turnouts, will be built directly onto the baseboard with no underlay for mainly scenic purposes. When this is extended, I'll most likely build the turnouts on my workbench and plain track on the baseboards.
Another alternative to cork underlay that Iain Rice suggests in his book on building track is a camping mat cut to shape. For myself, it's a case of whatever I can get my hands on for a small amount of money...

Nestor

[Mark Tatlow]

This thread is the society forum at its best.

I am a moderately experienced modeller but I have still grabbed two ideas off this thread that I had not thought of on my own/picked up to date. The use of superglue to secure the track (medium setting time gel I would think) and also of using balsawood as a carrier for bench made turnouts.

Thanks guys!

[Martin Wynne]

For the current project, which has no turnouts, will be built directly onto the baseboard with no underlay for mainly scenic purposes.

Hi,

Plain track without turnouts suggests that this is track in open country, rather than a station or junction? In which case track directly on the baseboard is the opposite of what you want for scenic purposes (unless the track is on an embankment?). Track normally has cess drains running along each side of the formation, and a shoulder on the ballast, like this:

cess1.jpg

cess2.jpg

It's impossible to replicate that if the sleepers are stuck directly to a flat baseboard. Even the usual 1/8" or 3mm chamfered cork is barely deep enough, see:



regards,

Martin.

[grovenor-2685]

Nestor is building the end of a siding, see http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4065#p36219 probably not much in the way of ballast or drainage
Keith

[Nestor]

As Keith said, this will be the end of a siding alongside a small country road in rural Ireland, hence going straight onto the baseboard. The track will be in a pretty sorry state.
Thanks for the diagrams though. When the rest of the layout is built (in the second half of 2015 sometime), then underlay will utilised for scenic purposes.

Cheers
Nestor

[Martin Wynne]

As Keith said, this will be the end of a siding alongside a small country road in rural Ireland, hence going straight onto the baseboard. The track will be in a pretty sorry state.

Hi Nestor,

If it's a siding in rural Ireland it should probably be light flat-bottom track. Here's the end of a siding at Rosslare in 1986. Note that the buffer stop is bullhead, whereas the rest is flat-bottom. Not something often modelled!

irish_siding1.jpg

irish_siding2.jpg

A 5ft-3in (21mm) flat-bottom Irish siding here in the foreground, as modelled on Adavoyle. The nearest track is 3ft (12mm) narrow-gauge, also flat-bottom:



regards,

Martin.

[Nestor]

Thanks for that Martin, I wouldn't have probably taken that into consideration...

Photos if the Midland Great Western in in County Mayo during the 1900s/1910s are few and far between. Most of what I have seen seems to be bullhead, however, I will keep looking, especially at sidings before I begin laying any track.

Nestor

[Martin Wynne]

I've only just noticed, 29 years after taking the picture, that the track in the foreground is in 30ft rails with staggered joints. That's an American idea which was also tried in Ireland. Leading to the traditional swaying from side-to-side as trains pass over any dipped joints. There is an option in Templot to mark staggered joints -- real > plain track options > rail-joint marks > menu options. You would need to set a custom 15ft rail length and spacings.



Martin.

[MarkS]

To reply to Phillip Hall,

It would be helpful if anyone out there has long term experience (I mean at least ten to fifteen years) of using a foam rubber underlay as I really don't want to have to contemplate a major rebuild as the layout gets older. Like its builder.

I built my exhibition layout back in 2003 using thin (2mm) "craft foam" and despite removing/replacing the track in 2007 (originally the layout was OO), the foam underlay remained intact and still is as good as new to this day, some 12 years later.
I used cheap PVA through out.

This shows the Craft foam glued to the foam baseboards I use for most of my home layout. I carved cess drains in the foam when the scenery was developed.

FoamUnderlay.jpg

This is an end of the exhibition layout. I used Exactoscale track with the thicker ties and have no problems with shifting, gauge narrowing etc.
The baseboard is 2" foam on 2" foam on an "L" girder subframe. Blue and pink foam are the same, just different manufacturers IIRC.

FoamBaseboard.jpg

[Martin Wynne]

feed_return.jpg

A handy way to remember which rail is which, especially when working underneath the baseboard, is to have the FFeed side at the FFront of the layout, and the RReturn at the RRear.

Martin.

[dclift]

I have used 4mm foam underlay with perfect success but I would issue a word of warning. The material that I am using was given to me by a friend around 30 years ago and sat unused until I started building my layout in 2009. I reckoned that if it had been going to deteriorate it would have done so by then. In fact it shows no sign of ageing. It is held down to the baseboard with locally (Australia) manufactured spray adhesive which is sold for use with photographs, artwork, fabric, cardboard etc and is very satisfactory. The only drawback is that the foam is bright blue, but this is not visible under the Templot paper templates (also fixed to the foam with spray adhesive) to which the plywood sleepered track is attached, either with more spray adhesive or a diluted water-based glue. Incidentally, I build my point and crossing work onto the Templot printout on a dedicated workbench long enough to accommodate a metre of track if necessary, and then transfer it to the baseboard. If I need to lift track I can dissolve the spray adhesive with turpentine, a smelly business, or the water-based glue with warm water, but as my track-building skills have improved, this is not necessary as frequently as it was five years ago.

Now for the word of caution. I also have some 00 gauge track built several decades ago on a different foam underlay that was sold as being suitable for this purpose. Over time it has decomposed into a powdery mess; in fact this probably took less than 10 years to occur. Now, I am not suggesting that you should purchase foam, store it for thirty years and then decide whether or not it is fit for purpose, but I am suggesting that if you decide to use foam, be very careful that it is not biodegradable, photodegradable or otherwise likely to disintegrate before you do. I have also found that plastic functional chairs purchased a decade ago, but not used until recently, have become so brittle with age that I get a 50 percent breakage rate when attempting to thread them onto code 70 rail. I now have a good supply of cosmetic half chairs and a box full of more recent vintage!

On a related topic, I have experimented with a 4 metre section of straight double track, constructed using C&L bases glued to paper but the paper not fixed to the foam underlay and so free to float. This was done as an experiment to test the sound deadening effect. In that regard the experiment was a great success, with little acoustic coupling between rail and baseboard, but I would not recommend it as the track certainly floats, rising and falling by considerable amount as rolling stock passes over it. It does not cause derailments, but it looks ridiculous. I have not attempted to measure the rise and fall, but it is at least 2mm and not a pretty sight.

Cheers,

David Clift

[Philip Hall]

Thank you Mark and David, reassuring words! Seems like the C&L style underlay with cheap PVA for the glue should be fine. Disintegrating foam underlay: I did buy some foam rubber sheet about 30 years ago and have a few scraps left which still seem intact. I used it on an old 00 layout which shows how long ago it was. I followed this path after seeing its use at Pendon where it was used with soldered track on the Dartmoor Scene. However, on a visit a year or two back I did notice that the levels were a little awry in places. I am not sure what they are using on the Vale Scene but it doesn't look like the old rubber foam sheet.

Philip

[allanferguson]

Another alternative to cork underlay that Iain Rice suggests in his book on building track is a camping mat cut to shape. For myself, it's a case of whatever I can get my hands on for a small amount of money...

Nestor

I laid my layout on camping mat, following the example of a friend. Never again. Sound deadening is no better than 1/8" cork, and the stability of the track is very poor. Where I have needed to re-lay track I have replaced the foam with equivalent thickness balsa.

Allan F

[Terry Bendall]

Here's the end of a siding at Rosslare in 1986. Note that the buffer stop is bullhead, whereas the rest is flat-bottom. Not something often modelled!

Probably not. Not quite the same application but on Elcot Road there is flat bottom track on the main line, bay platform and loop made using Colin Craig turnout kits and other track components, and bullhead track in the sidings using Exactoscale parts.

I laid my layout on camping mat, following the example of a friend. Never again.

We had lots of problems with camping mat on the now dismantled Brighton Road and like Allan decided never again.

I used cork underlay on my last layout, and the track was glued down with Copydex. In the time I had the layout I had no trouble

Cork was used on the Mid Sussex's group's West Chiltington built some 35 years ago and which still exists in my son's ownership becoming Staverton. The track is laid on cork and is still in very good condition and the storage is not ideal. I would not use anything else.

Terry Bendall

[tank engine]

I have settled on useing cork .I buy the rolls 1/16th by 1' 1/2 inch width and 98 ft long for the plain track.
I now use evostick to glue the cork to the baseboards as I find the cork does not harden as it can with PVA etc.
To curve the cork I cut it length wise and lay the first half to a marked radius line which has had the glue applied the other half simply follows the curve of the first one.
Turnouts I tend to build on a workbench.
Regards,
Derek.

[deak]

Having just started on my track laying, I am following the advice given in Iain Rice's book and building the trackwork directly on stiff paper as one complete unit. This is proving very simple to do and, when finished, will be laid over an underlay. I am not quite sure what I will use for this, but the present thinking is to use cork. It seems to have worked for many people over many years and, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Cutting slots for the switch rail blade actuators seems as though it might be a problem, but I haven't been defeated yet. We will see.

Deak.

[BrockleyAndrew]

I've been building small sections of track on 6mm ply to try differing construction orders of sleepers/rail/ballast/painting and the ballasting always seems to result in slight warping of the ply even if I weigh down the track while everything dries. I realise that 6mm ply is not thick enough without bracing to stay flat but it has also made me wonder if perhaps the beauty of cork underlay is that it can absorb moisture during the ballasting process and dry off again and leave the baseboards to stay nice and flat.

Andrew
Brockley, London

[jim s-w]

Hi Andrew. Are you laying onto unsealed wood? All baseboards shoud be sealed first.

HTH

Jim

[BrockleyAndrew]

Thanks Jim,
You're quite right. It should be sealed first. Something about the small scale of the pieces, and me being a bit casual with them as they are only test strips meant I forgot that step!
Andrew

[Terry Bendall]

All baseboards shoud be sealed first.

Interesting thought but something that I have never done in 35+ years of working to P4 standards. No warping evident but then I do use 12mm ply.

I realise that 6mm ply is not thick enough without bracing to stay flat but it has also made me wonder if perhaps the beauty of cork underlay is that it can absorb moisture during the ballasting process and dry off again and leave the baseboards to stay nice and flat.

I think the 6mm would have to be very well braced to stop warping, and the amount of bracing needed may well cancel out any advantage of using thinner ply. Gluing the cork down may well cause warping and I think it is unlikely to go back flat when the glue dries but I have never tried to see if this is the case.

Terry Bendall

[BrockleyAndrew]

Hello Terry,
I was wondering what would might suggest for a viaduct? Would you use a strip of 12mm ply as the viaduct surface (assuming you have the 3' + depth from surface to top of arches in your real-life viaduct) or would you concentrate on building nice square boxing in thinner ply up from a stable 12mm baseboard?
Many thanks
Andrew

[Terry Bendall]

I was wondering what would might suggest for a viaduct?

Hi Andrew

I think either method would work, but which is used might depend on how high the viaduct is. On Brighton Road see http://www.scalefour.org/shows/S4um2010/brighton.html from memory I think 12mm ply was used for the track bed on top of the brick arches and I believe the same thickness was used for the bridge base. A box beam construction would probably work just as well. I expect that members of DRAG would be able to reveal how the constructed the structure of their model of Balcombe Viaduct which is of course a much larger structure that most of us would attempt.

An alternative method would be to cut the structure of the arches from plywood - perhaps 6mm thick, fit cross members and then arrange the track bed support to rest on the cross members.

Hope this helps

Terry Bendall