On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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ianpenberth
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby ianpenberth » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:52 pm

bordercollie wrote:but also a layer of foam between the main MDF and the MDF on which the track is laid

I wanted to avoid having any deformable material there to allow precise control over the amount of superelevation.

As has been noted in this thread, and elsewhere, it often all comes to naught anyway once the track is firmly fixed down and ballasted. This video fragment shows a temporary length of plain track that's stuck down with just a few small pads of double-sided tape. You can hear the contrast with the glued (Araldite!) and ballasted (C&L) track on either side: https://youtu.be/ywTiPFrcViQ.

The phone soundmeter app FWIW:
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Ian
PenBits Model Railways - Diesel bogie springing and detailing

Philip Hall
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:14 am

I too want to control track levels, particularly since I will be using quite a few unsprung and uncompensated RTR engines and stock, along with a touch of superelevation here and there. I also like silent running, but the ‘quiet’ track almost seems too quiet to me! I did think of laying track on foam rubber, but with our minuscule flanges I am suspicious of changes in level that could occur over the years, and I really don’t want to be relaying the PW after a few years because it’s shifted.

Ian, is the track bed on the ‘quiet’ section cork, rubber or plain baseboard?

My plan at the moment is to lightly pin the track (Exactoscale FastTrack) through the cork into the baseboard, and once proved and tested, to ballast around the sleepers using a latex adhesive. The theory, as yet unproved, is that a little of the adhesive will seep under the sleepers but not too much. Also the pins might not be removed, still locating the track, but I shall grind down the tops - or countersink the sleepers - so they are virtually invisible.

Whether this works remains to be seen!

Philip

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ianpenberth
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby ianpenberth » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:16 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Ian, is the track bed on the ‘quiet’ section cork, rubber or plain baseboard?


The trackbed is as per the photo in my post of 23rd Jan throughout ('noisy' and 'quiet'), except there's no superelevation packing under the top 3mm MDF strip as it's a straight section.
Ian
PenBits Model Railways - Diesel bogie springing and detailing

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BRUNEL
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby BRUNEL » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 pm

Ian Penberth wrote:
6.5mm ply base, 3mm closed cell foam, 6.5mm MDF then 3mm MDF ballast strips.


This is an interesting concept, Ian, as it seems to provide the advantages of a floating system with a hard working surface. How was the foam fixed to the ply base and the MDF to the foam?

Brunel.

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ianpenberth
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby ianpenberth » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:43 am

BRUNEL wrote:How was the foam fixed to the ply base and the MDF to the foam?

All the MDF parts were sealed with builders' PVA diluted 1 water : 5 PVA. The ply was sealed with a coat of exterior grade varnish. Then the same PVA mix used to bond the foam each side.

I did worry about the ends of the MDF base tending to curl upwards, but it hasn't happened (10 years and counting...).

I see in the photo that the paper templates, used to mark out the ply and MDF decks for cutting, are in situ - they were glued to the uncut sheets using the same PVA mix and eventually sealed by either the varnish or PVA. That didn't go well - the distortion and shortening of the paper templates (over about 4' lengths) was significant. For boards made later, I cut out templates, held them down flat and traced round their edges - in the meantime some tedious remedial work on the decks I'd already cut! The templates were done on a 36" roll plotter, 90gsm paper I think, not particularly heavy anyway.
Ian
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Julian Roberts
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:54 pm

This is a very useful thread; I remembered reading it but on searching in baseboards to re-read was surprised it's not in there but here in Track and Turnouts!

I've got my Kyle layout fully planned and ready to go. It seems to me that when it's possible to etch a Templot plan straight onto the baseboard top, that is the best way to accurately and easily lay the track - saving the intermediate stage of printing out paper templates, sticking them down and laying the track on them, with all that faff as well as the possibilities of slight inaccuracies building up into something possibly rather less than slight...!

Of course a problem is noise when everything is stuck down directly on the baseboard top.

Then reading Ian Penberth's posts here with the resilient separation of the track bed and ballast from the baseboard, giving much quieter running, I've started thinking the thing to do is to get the track etched onto a layer of - well, balsa, or thin ply perhaps - and stick that down on..... well, why not rubber sheet? And why stick the track to wood, whether it's balsa or ply or whatever? Why not plastic of some sort, like vinyl sheet?

In my case the sleepers are all 1.6mm thick, so the ballast shoulder will likely be enough depth for the rather minimal one needed for this shed scene, to the extent it's needed at all.

Shed view with bodies.PNG
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Terry Bendall
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:16 am

Julian Roberts wrote: I've started thinking the thing to do is to get the track etched onto a layer of - well, balsa, or thin ply perhaps - and stick that down on..... well, why not rubber sheet? And why stick the track to wood, whether it's balsa or ply or whatever? Why not plastic of some sort, like vinyl sheet?


A long time ago, (1974) the first layout to be built by the mid-Sussex group was laid on 3mm thick rubber sheet which I believe was a method used at Pendon. For us it didn't work and the method was scrapped. On Brighton Road we used 12mm thick camping mat and that also caused great problems.
Everyone has their own method but my method is to remove the track from the templates when built, mark out where the cork is going then glue that down. Check for levels along the cork and across baseboard joints before going too far. Glue the sleepers direct to the cork. Work carefully, check measurments and alignment regularly, then check again and leave things to dry before going too far. It works! I still have the original boards built for West Chiltington which are now 43 years old and the track on that is as good as it was when first laid.

Noise is a problem but only when a layout is operated at home. At an exhibition it is not noticed. The important thing is once the track has been built we want it to stay flat, level and in alignment. Using alterntative methods may work but if they don't you have wasted a lot of time and effort and the weaknesses may not be immediately evident.

Terry Bendall

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steve howe
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby steve howe » Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:04 pm

Cork has long been the material of choice for underlay because of its stability, firmness and ability to hold pins (useful when setting out formations before gluing) but I don't think the noise issue is as much to do with cork as it is with thinner baseboards and the use of PVA glue, especially if you use granite ballast stuck in place with PVA which I've found in the past seems to increase the noise/vibration. Cork is certainly stable, as Terry has observed, and the track on our group layout 'Watermouth' and my 'Roseladden Wharf' which was built in the 1970's using ply and rivet and cork underlay is still in perfect condition with no movement other than vulnerable rail-ends at baseboard joints. I've tried foam based underlays at various times including the dense black stuff sold by Exactoscale, but have come back to 1/8" cork for preference. I've also tried building track both in-situ and on the bench, and come to the conclusion that building on a board first gives you the opportunity to pick the thing up and squint at it from all directions as you make it. Getting it off the board and onto the layout in one piece is another matter though!!

Steve

Terry Bendall
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:31 am

steve howe wrote:Getting it off the board and onto the layout in one piece is another matter though!!


I built a fairly complex set of pointwork a year of so back using ply and rivets. Three parallel tracks with two tandem turnouts which formed two crossovers and one road of each tadem leading to sidings, in all about 22 inches long. My solution was to solder lengths of scrap rail across the tops of all the running rails in about eight places so all the key parts were conencted. Lift off the templates, glue in place, tweaking as needed and hold down with suitable weights until the glue had dried. I put short lengths of timber about 45 x 20 cross section on the rails first and the weights on top to help spread the load of the weights. All worked a treat. :)

Terry Bendall

Paulhb
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Paulhb » Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:24 pm

I recently built three turnouts as part of track relaying on Ruyton Road. These were constructed on the workbench on a base of thick paper fixed to a wood base. 150gsm if I recall correctly. When complete the track was then moved on its paper base onto a cork base fixed to the baseboard. Plain track was then built in situ. I built each point individually but in the same way a formation can be completed and as Terry suggests moved as one piece with rail temporarily soldered to provide support. Very much as Iain Rice suggests in his track building book.

28A7CE22-AA78-4756-9572-DE21C9271A1A.jpeg

Turnouts placed on position prior to final fixing.

B5B3037B-36C6-451A-BC81-7439A88C7789.jpeg



Regards Paul
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Julian Roberts
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:04 pm

Thanks for the replies folks. I looked at Ruyton Road video Paul - very charming, lovely scene, and just the sort of music I'd choose too, if I knew what it was! Terry I wasn't suggesting building track straight on to rubber, but on a base of some sort, which would then be laid on rubber, which would be stuck to the baseboard proper.

I thought there were some previous very provocative ideas in this thread - but reflect, as you have said, that if something doesn't work it may not be apparent for some time and all the subsequent work would have to be undone. Also I've reflected that my issue regarding template accuracy can be solved by getting the plan printed on one large piece of paper for the whole layout. So I'm thinking now I'll lay a bed of cork over the whole baseboard track area (apart from where the land level falls away), stick the paper template down on it (which I know will be critical and not as simple as that sounds), and build the track on that paper.

I'd have thought that regarding noise the thicker the cork the better - I wonder whether 6 or 10mm thickness would give other issues?

By the way the turnouts are built already so they will be laid as if they were RTR (well, they are!) Unless I've got my Templot files mixed up, the template turnouts will be identical to the ones on which they were constructed. Just the plain track has to be inserted between them.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: On building track - straight onto the baseboard?

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:03 pm

No doubt this subject has had plenty of airings on various other threads. One page caught my attention since writing the above

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtop ... &start=250

In particular Geraint Hughes' description of his project using 15mm or 10mm cork laser cut and with the track plan etched on. This would seem to solve several issues at once.
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