Turnout wiring / soldering

[mattots]

OK, I have to admit to being a complete novice in this whole area so please bear with me!

I'm building my first turnout (actually it's my second but the first didn't incorporate any electrical feeds/connections) and following the instructions on Digest sheet 23.6.4 (as I'm using C&L components). However, I'm having some difficulties with fitting the dropper wires to the copper-clad strips as per the instructions. I've stuck the copper-clad to the timbers beneath the crossing V and the switch heels and drilled through, but my complete lack of soldering experience is getting the better of me.

On my first attempt (using 188 solder and green label flux) I ended up with a huge blob of solder on top of the copper-clad but without any of it actually bonding to the wire itself! I was starting with the top of the wire flush with the top of the copper-clad so my guess is that the heat wasn't transferring to the wire sufficiently. My second attempt, using solder cream, initially appeared more successful but upon testing the joint wasn't very strong. This time I'd started with the wire protruding a bit and then snipped it off and filed down flat after soldering, but it seems the solder had not run into the hole itself so once I'd filed down there was nothing left to hold the wire in place! (I also ended up with solder cream all over the place as it wouldn't stop oozing out of the syringe!)

Maybe someone with a bit of patience can offer some beginners advice on the correct soldering technique to use here. Obviously what is required is a strong joint with the minimum of solder so that the rail sits flat on top rather than atop a lump of solder!

[mattots]

I just tried using solder paint (and no flux) which certainly seems easier to use than the cream. However, once the wire is filed down flat to the copper-clad the joint is again virtually non-existent.

A further problem I'm encountering is that the heat from the soldering iron is softening the adhesive bond between the copper-clad strip and sleeper (I used 5-minute epoxy but also tried super glue).

Oh the joys of soldering!!!

[Rod Cameron]

Hi Matt

I can't say I've ever done this the way it says in that digest sheet! I would generally solder a strip of copper direct to the underside of the rails between positions 11/12 and 37/38, and snip off to length afterwards.

The normal rules on soldering apply as ever - all parts clean (and don't forget the solder itself if using a reel) and pre-tin the copper strip and preferably the underside of the rail as well (bit of pre-planning needed here!). Make sure the soldering iron bit is clean and properly tinned. Then it should just be a case of a small amount of flux and a small amount of solder and there you are. Try practising a few joints on some scrap copper and rail first if you need to.

Same with droppers in general - drill the holes and attach the droppers to the underside of the rail before installing if possible.

HTH

[grovenor-2685]

Having had a look at the Digest in question I think that concept of soldering the wire through a hole in copperclad and filing off flush is doomed to failure. It would probably be OK if you used solid brass strips rather than copperclad.
The problem is that the copper is only a thin surface layer, when you file it flush you effectively file the entire solder joint away, leaving no strength as you found.
If you have followed all the rest of the instructions as in that digest then I suggest you skip the wires at this stage, install all the rails then redrill your holes clear of the actual rail, bend over a mm of the wire so it sits on top of the copperclad close up against a rail, solder it and don't do any filing down.

I would also suggest soldering the rails to the copperclad before you fix the chairs on the nearby sleepers, you can solder next to a plastic chair if you are well practised and can make a good joint quickly. As a beginner you will most likely melt the chairs.

I can see a need to revise that Digest! Anyone using C&L parts like to contribute alternative methods?
Hope this helps a bit.

[Dave K]

When we were wiring up the turnouts on Hallatrow we drilled a small hole adjustant to the timber were the C&L copper clad had been stuck with epoxy e.g. the vee, and soldered the dropper straight on top and then added the cosmetic chairs. Once we had tested the layout the copper clad was painted with a suitable colour so to blend in.

[Major Clanger]

I can see a need to revise that Digest! Anyone using C&L parts like to contribute alternative methods?
Hope this helps a bit.

If building on the bench, rather than in situ, when the turnout is finished, turn it upside down and solder the feeds/bonds directly to the underside of the rails, cutting away portions of the template as required. No chairs/timbers melted yet. Invisible once laid and ballasted, and even repairable in situ.

Andrew Hartshorne

[Allan Goodwillie]

hi Matt,
The following may help you solve the problem-

In olden times when I first started in P4, as it was then, and the Scalefour Society had not started, a couple of components that Studiolith developed were very useful in this regard. If you were using the wooden sleeper and rivit construction for your points you could purchase a roll of thin copper strip which was the width of the sleepers. It came with a sticky backing. The idea was simple, after marking out the timbers in the usual way you marked on the rear of the timber just where your connecting strip was to be located, the rivits across the crossing vee for instance. A flat needle file was then used to shave off the first layer of the back of the sleeper timber. The copper was then stuck on the rear and the holes punched in the timber just as usual through timber and copper. The rivits were then placed in the holes as usual but before closing up, the second component was added, a strip of brass wire with holes to take the rivits at regular spacings.The spacing was long enough to allow a length to be cut with two holes, one at either end.the top end would be put around the rivit, under the sleeper, before closing and when closed the rivit made a strong bond between the rail soldered on top through to the bonding strip and the dropper strip underneath. The lower end of the strip was fed down through a hole in the baseboard and this allowed for a wire to be passed through the lower hole for an easy soldering job, well away from any components that may come apart. At the time it was reccommended that the underside of the bonding strip could be soldered, but I must admit that I never did. It also recommended that the dropper strips should also be doubled up over two rivits in case one should fail, again something I did not bother with. The first section of "Dubbieside" I built back in the early seventies was constructed this way and is still in operation, this method of construction giving no problems throughout its entire life. I was talking to my old mate Jim Summers at the weekend about items the Society should introduce for the members and these two simple components came to mind. Another item which was available then, was a very good point actuator/ bar which was available through Studiolith. I bought a number of them at the time and found them to be foolproof and capable of long term use without failure. Dubbieside was set up in the Melrose Model Museum and over a period of three years operated daily, seven days a week from 9.00 am till 5.00 pm each day ( Easter - October) , possibly the hardest worked Scalefour layout in history, it was also very big in these days being over 50 ft in its end to end form. So these components and methods have been well tested and have worked well. When Studiolith stopped producing the actuator I developed a new one for myself which is simple to make and has 3 components. It takes minutes to fit with any soldering taking place above baseboard level and any adjustment again above baseboard level. It is being used on Burntisland, the 5th layout to use it successfully. I have written an article on it in the Railway Modeller last year, if you are interested I could email you a copy. It takes a few minutes to make, is simple and cheap and is a component thet can be adapted for any scale.
Copper strip of a similar type is available for model house building although it tends to be of a different width, but suitable, just the same. Brass shim could also be drilled with the right sized drill and used in the same way as the original strip, I use an old leather punch, not a lot of work either way although if the components were freely available from the Society I am sure they would be well used. Here is a photograph of Dubbie which has been reworked by me for one of Jim's Christmas editions of the Scalefour Society Journal a few years back. Dubbie is undergoing a major rebuild at the moment and will be out in its entireity at the Wigan show.

Allan Goodwillie

[mattots]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. Regarding the electrical connections I think the suggestion of drilling the holes adjacent to the timber/copper-clad and then bending the wire and soldering it alongside the rail sounds a good solution. As long as the joint is on the back of the rail (viewed from the front) it shouldn't be visible (and in any case, the layout will be depicting neglected, overgrown sidings so any blobs of solder and the like can be easily disguised with weeds, grass and general dirt!).

Alan, I really like the simplicity of your turnout operating unit and I'm definitely going to give it a go. I'm planning on devising some sort of simple mechanical operation rather than using motors - there are only 4 turnouts on the layout.

[Allan Goodwillie]

hi Matt,
please let me know how you get on. It is always interesting trying something new, but I am sure you get the hang of it very quickly. Passing on usefull and well tried information and looking for alternatives is what the forum should be about as well as making a few new friends of course.

Best of luck.
Allan

[johnWM]

I have heard a few people in our area group talk about the long term problems of acid based fluxes during track construction. Or use this or that technique, to avoid long term problems with broken solder joints.
With both copper clad and Ply and rivet construction, I have always used standard cored solder as used in circuit board construction. I have never had a problem. The more specialist solder and flux combinations I reserve for etched brass or white metal kit construction.

[mattots]

please let me know how you get on. It is always interesting trying something new, but I am sure you get the hang of it very quickly.

You can keep track of my progress at line2nowhere.blogspot.com

Matt