Printing Society Track Templates

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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John McAleely
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby John McAleely » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:32 pm

I understand from talking to Paul that he's having a go at redrafting the printing instructions. In the interim I've linked this thread from the download page.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:15 am

DaveHarris wrote: it looks like i will have to buy templates from either stores or C&L and hope they have overcome the problem.


The alternative of course is to find a friend who's computer/printer will do the job.

Terry Bendall

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Simon_S
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Simon_S » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:46 am

DaveyTee wrote:Best way to find out is to print it and then check the printout with your track gauge. For basic pointwork it should be fine.
DT


What would help is calibration marks a specified distance apart at the extremities of the templates. Scaling off a relatively small dimension such as the track gauge will exaggerate any measurement inaccuracies.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:37 am

Simon_S wrote:What would help is calibration marks a specified distance apart at the extremities of the templates.

Hi Simon,

See my previous posts. Such dimensions are given on the templates, referring to the outer border on the prints.

For the smaller templates the length of the outer border should be 408.0mm as stated thereon:

For the larger templates the length of the outer border should be 500.0mm as stated thereon:

s4_print_area.png


The problem is that if printed at 100% these dimensions are not achieved. To make them come right it is necessary to print at 102.5%.

regards,

Martin.
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DaveHarris
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby DaveHarris » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:32 pm

I am sorry to say that I feel that if members have to either modify a commercial computer software programme, or search for a printer that will cope with the 'discrepancies' the current on-line print system is delivering then this is taking the use of IT too far, we are railway modellers not IT systems engineers. I for one have no idea how to change software programmes to cope with the current offering of templates, and neither can i get my head around Templot, like many others I know. I find the current comments regarding having to have a level of aptitude/understanding of IT to compare with some individuals who obviously have far more aptitude than others rather condcending and am dissapointed that this sort of attitude is prevailing in this society. I would have expected, having had a problem highlighted, those with the understanding/capibility would correct the problem, or withdraw the facility , rather than infer that those who do not understand what has happened and what is needed to overcome the problem are lesser mortals!

Alan Turner
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:53 pm

Well all I have is the latest Adobe reader, but with my old 690c HP printer I am able to print at custom scales of 102.5% with all the settings clearly displayed in the printer dialog box when I hit the print button.


regards

Alan

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Will L
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Will L » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:07 am

DaveHarris wrote:I am sorry to say that I feel that if members have to either modify a commercial computer software programme, or search for a printer that will cope with the 'discrepancies' the current on-line print system is delivering then this is taking the use of IT too far, we are railway modellers not IT systems engineers. I for one have no idea how to change software programmes to cope with the current offering of templates, and neither can i get my head around Templot, like many others I know. I find the current comments regarding having to have a level of aptitude/understanding of IT to compare with some individuals who obviously have far more aptitude than others rather condcending and am dissapointed that this sort of attitude is prevailing in this society. I would have expected, having had a problem highlighted, those with the understanding/capibility would correct the problem, or withdraw the facility , rather than infer that those who do not understand what has happened and what is needed to overcome the problem are lesser mortals!


While appreciate that technology can seem quite daunting, I'm sorry but that really is an element of over reaction in that.

While I'm sure the powers that be in the society would dearly like to republish the templates so they do print the right size first time, getting then corrected is likely to take quite a bit of "faf", not least because the originals don't belong to the society.

In the mean time, no modification to software is necessary nor a search for a mythical printer that might sort out the problem for you.

It really is no more difficult to follow the instructions to print the templates at 102% of full size than it is to print them across two sheets of paper, which is also necessary and unavoidable. The same printer dialogue box controls both. One line of the published instructions needs to be modified
From
Make sure that the “Tile Scale” shows “100%”.
to
Change the"“Tile Scale” to show “102%”

I agree that using templot as a carrier and to calibrate the printer or to get the additional .5% is fine for the perfectionists. For the rest of us, when we've realised, from the instructions, how to enter the 102% scaling factor, we can measure the results for our selves with a ruler, and if our printers don't give quite the right size result add or subtract 1from scaling factor until it does. And that's basic nouse not an IT skill.

If you don't understand the technology, and there's no shame in that as few understand all of it, then the simple, blood pressure reducing, course is to ignore those who manage to make it sound complicated and just try following the instructions.

Will

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:40 am

Will L wrote:While I'm sure the powers that be in the society would dearly like to republish the templates so they do print the right size first time, getting then corrected is likely to take quite a bit of "faf"

Hi Will,

Not really much faf.

I have already done one of them: http://85a.co.uk/dummy/s4soc_b7image.pdf

This should be printed at 100% scale or Page Scaling=None. The size correction, tiling to 2 pages and cut lines are already set up in the PDF file. Just print it. See: viewtopic.php?p=28315#p28315

However, the above file contains the original template as a bitmap, so the file is somewhat larger (4MB instead of 2MB). That shouldn't be a problem on most modern computers.

The file was created by Templot but you don't need Templot to print it. It is an ordinary PDF file.


Alternatively, for those who prefer the smaller file size, here is a corrected version of the original. This can be printed using the original printing instructions to tile it yourself. Again, this is already size-corrected so should be printed at 100% scale or Page Scaling=None:

http://85a.co.uk/dummy/corrected_b7lh.pdf

Perhaps someone would care to try it and report their result?

I'm happy to convert the remaining files to either format (the first format is obviously easy to use), but I need some guidance on copyright and where they should be hosted. The above are hosted on my web space because they won't attach here (too big -- why such a restrictive limit?).

p.s. don't open the above files in your browser. Right-click on the links and select Save Target As... or Save Link As... Then open the saved file in your full PDF reader program.

regards,

Martin.
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Will L
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Will L » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:32 am

Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Will,

Not really much faf.

I have already done one of them....

I'm happy to convert the remaining files to either format (the first format is obviously easy to use), but I need some guidance on copyright and where they should be hosted. ...


If you're willing to do the work on all 32 then I expect somebody will be along shortly to snatch your hand off, but I was also thinking about the possible copyright issues.

For instance, as I remember it, C&L hold the copy right, make money from selling them to others, and have agreed for this download service to be available for members only, so they probably shouldn't be available from a publicly viewable area like this.

Will

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:54 am

Will L wrote:If you're willing to do the work on all 32 then I expect somebody will be along shortly to snatch your hand off, but I was also thinking about the possible copyright issues. For instance, as I remember it, C&L hold the copyright

Hi Will,

It takes only a couple of minutes each, so I'm happy to do them all -- but not today or all in one go. The copyright issue seems murky, because they all carry the society logo and say "Commissioned by the Scalefour Society". Do those being sold by C&L say this?

regards,

Martin.
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Paul Willis
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:04 am

Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Will,

It takes only a couple of minutes each, so I'm happy to do them all -- but not today or all in one go. The copyright issue seems murky, because they all carry the society logo and say "Commissioned by the Scalefour Society". Do those being sold by C&L say this?

regards,

Martin.


Hi Martin,

First of all, thanks for the very kind offer of your time. I know from the Templot Forum that you have other calls on your time at the moment.

The position about copyright is murky, but everyone is being friendly about it. I'll drop you an email to explain all so that you are comfortable with it.

But yes, the agreement with C&L is that the templates are available to members only.

Cheers
Paul Willis
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David Thorpe

Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:41 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:Perhaps someone would care to try it and report their result?


As far as gauge is concerned, both these appear to be pretty much spot-on as printed out on my laser printer using Adobe reader. However, printed as poster size (the only way it would print) on 100% , the "corrected" file insisted on using 8 A4 pages, 6 of which were blank except for marks in the corners. On the other hand I was able to print the 4MB file as "actual size" and it required only two pages.

DT

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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby DaveHarris » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:24 pm

Gentlemen,

Whilst I appreciate the obvious helpful comments since my last post, I have tried following the advice given with the following results:

A6 RH Turnout : The printer will only scale to whole numbers so I input 102%. The resulting information from the printer as it absorbed the file to print was that it would print on 2 pages. The resulting print produced a copy of the point on one page only with the diagram area cut short at crossing timber 24, the second page was blank!

B6 RH Turnout: Again I had to use the same scaling. The printer then said the document would take 2 pages. When printed the point stops at crossing timber 25 and the second page was blank!

I have to assume that as the image really requires to be printed on A3 paper (this being the next available size of paper), that the file is confusing the printer software, my printer being a 'cheap and nasty' basic Epsom printer. Seems I will have to order prints from either of the available sources for pre-printed templates

Natalie Graham

Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Natalie Graham » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:12 pm

I'm starting to think it would be easier just to use the template as a reference drawing, scale the measurements with a calculator, and build the turnout on a plain board. You only need a reference line tor the edge of the sleepers and to plot the lead, distance from the crossing nose to the tip of the switches, and the rest follows on anyway as you build it.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:12 pm

I'm starting to think it would be easier just to use the template as a reference drawing, scale the measurements with a calculator, and build the turnout on a plain board.
Not for me, a bit of double sided tape and stick the timbers down on the template, no calculating, no measuring. I just downloaded Martin's sample, hit print, got the required 2 pages and my ruler says its spot on.
Keith
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Keith
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Natalie Graham

Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Natalie Graham » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:59 pm

Fair enough, and I don't see why my own printer should have difficulties printing to the adjusted size, (although I am not sure I want LNER design pointwork, are there LNWR ones available anywhere?) but if someone is having real difficulties downloading and printing the templates to the correct size then it might just be simpler to not bother building on the template. It is very convenient to do it that way but it isn't a necessity. If someone finds that convenience is outweighed by the inconvenience of obtaining the templates then it perhaps isn't the right option for the person concerned.

I don't think I ever tried building directly on a template as my previous 'finescale' track-building efforts were of NER interlaced sleeper turnouts in 3mm scale and as I was building on a solid sub=base anyway the option to use a template didn't really arise. I was just compiling my order on C+L's website (and am now recovering from looking at the total at the bottom of the order page :shock: ) so maybe I will give it a go

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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby dal-t » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:01 am

Maybe this is a situation where it helps to have a museum-piece printer. When I was surreptitiously drawing mixed EM/00-9 pointwork during office lunch breaks in the 1980s, the state-of-the-art Apple Mac and steam-driven printer which the Government kindly provided for less entertaining activity would happily print out accurate results across anything up to 4 sheets of A4. All I then needed was a pair of HMSO scissors and official (non-red) tape to join the ends of the track up and produce 'buildable' templates. Today if I try to obtain hard copy from the Society's downloadable files my relatively new Epson 4-in1 printer offers me one of 3 totally different dialogue boxes, apparently selected at random, but presumably actually driven by whichever application currently has priority. All of these try to shrink whatever output I want onto a single sheet, and overriding that with a '102%' command (or even '102.5%', since the relevant box does seem to recognise decimals) will either just lose the output that can't then fit on one A4 page, or throw several sheets of mainly blank paper with odd bits of 'overflow' in assorted corners. So sometimes 'progress' isn't - anyone got a spare daisy-wheel?
David L-T

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Horsetan
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:30 am

OT, but it was amusing to note that the 18.36mm gauge mentioned earlier is almost correct for Australian 5'3" in P87......
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:49 pm

As I have been running a track construction course for the West Scotland 4mm Group - we have the opportunity to build an extention for Calderside, :D I thought I would have a look at the downloadable templates to see if there are any that we could use. I have a good selection of the ones that were available many years ago, but the updated ones have a lot of detail that the older ones do not. I followed the instructions that have been given here and found that they printed out on the 102% setting of my printer and have printed out correctly. Thank you for this part of the fourum and all those who have contributed. :)

It got me around to thinking about reproducing simple drawings for locomotive chassis. :idea: I am making a replacement chassis for a J88 first built back in the early 70's - my first P4 loco. This is the third chassis for this loco - I had to make my own wheels for the first version and it had a studiolith gearbox and a 5 pole motor - Romford. The chassis also used brass taken from curtain rail material - boy were things basic in these days!

I had a nice 7mm drawing available from the NB Stdy group and drew up a drawing on paper using ruler and pen. I have built locos with no more than that in the past, including the original chassis for the loco, however, I do not have a CAD program on my computer, but I do have MIcrosoft Powerpoint which allows you to make drawings in a fairly straightforward way and having made the "rough" drawing I scanned the drawing on to my computer which forms a JPG image knowing that reprinting the image it would come out a little smaller -we will come back to this. Details of springs and brake blocks have not been added, however the top position of the brake hangers have been marked. ;)

Re060.jpg

J88 chassis 4mm.jpg


Once the rough was put into the Powerpoint program I used this as a basis for making up a more refined drawing. The drawing was then saved as a PDF and printed out at 102% This I checked with the original drawing and found that everything was to the same size. By the way anyone who may decide to print out the drawing reproduced here and wishing to use it for a J88 the chassis length is a little short - this is because of the way I built the original loco and the new chassis is being built to fit the body.

J88 chassis pdf.pdf
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:26 pm

Getting back to the templates, a thought struck me, my computer for reasons known only to itself always assumes, when asked to print a pdf, that you just want to duplicate the pdf and offers up 'pdf creator' as default printer. My thought was, could the scaling be done in this process?
So I first printed a template (A6) as downloaded and at 100%. As expected it came out a bit small, so printed again at 102.5% which produced a correct size print.
Now back to pdf creator, this time I printed to pdf creator with the scaling set to 102.5% and saved the result to desktop. Opened the saved document in adobe reader and printed again on the actual printer at 100%. This time print came out correct size. So it should be a simple excercise to rescale the downloadable files. Just have to work out how to get the whole sheet and not have it cropped to A4! [Edit: Creating a custom paper size sorts that so far as the pdf is concerned, result is attached. The printer only wants to print half of it, but that is the same with the original downloads].
Well it would be if the upload did not keep timing out!
It is, of course, simpler just to use Templot which has a really sophisticated printing setup that calibrates your printer and includes accurate cut lines when you need to print over multiple pages.
Regards

PS. Looking back I notice Martin offered two years ago, how come its not been done?
Regards
Keith
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:52 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:PS. Looking back I notice Martin offered two years ago, how come it's not been done?

Because I am lazy, incompetent and unreliable. Image

I will see what I can do in the next few days.

Martin.
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:46 pm

Oh dear, sorry Martyn - you have enough to do at this time of the year! Did not intend this to be the outcome. :cry:

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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:05 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:I will see what I can do in the next few days.

Martin.


Since no one has been following up on it for the past two years you hardly need rush Martin
Happy Christmas,
Keith
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Keith
Grovenor Sidings

dal-t
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby dal-t » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:52 am

Martin Wynne wrote:Because I am lazy, incompetent and unreliable. Image

Martin.


Sorry, Martin, that excuse simply does not fit the bill. Even a rough count of the number of constructive posts you make on this and other Forums (let's not get into the Latin/English debate, eh?), the number of other people's problems you solve, and the incredibly speedy advice you provide on Templot queries (not to mention the on-going upgrades of your unique software) prove exactly the opposite - energetic, expert and extremely dependable! :thumb
David L-T

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Printing Society Track Templates

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:47 am

Martyn may be interested to know, although he possibly knows already,that we have been using Templot in the development of the East of Scotland Group's Burntisland for quite a long period now, from the earliest of plans, we print them up full size and make the track accordingly. Fergus Duncan has spent much time on this over the last 12 plus years, I have a feeling that we were amongst the first to have a go at producing such a large layout with the program. More recently in the West Group we have been using Templot to design our new extention - Chris Coles has the facility and put in the time. So much to thank Martyn for, :) as well as the other gentlemen who have made the effort to learn how to work the program. A great facility Martyn. :!:


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