Sticking things down

[allanferguson]

On Brighton Road we used 10mm camping map as an underlay. Barry Luck's view, as the person who looks after the layout and has done much to get it running succesfully, is that he would never use it again. We have had a lot of trouble at baseboard joints with alignment, both horizontally and vertically and in the end resorted to 1mm brass wire passing through the underlay and glued into holes drilled in the 12mm ply baseboard top then cut off level with the underside of the rail, which is then soldered to the wire. Any sort of soldered fixing at the baseboard joints has the potential to cause problems if the brass expands, but is held ridgedly at both ends.

Can I agree -- most noisily(!) -- with this. If I could afford to take up my loft layout and start again, I'd probably lay track on bare boards. I used 6mm camping mat, and it still transmits noise. And alignment is a nightmare.

Allan F

[beachboy]

Terry / Allen,

May I ask, was the track made on another material before fixing to the Camping Mat, and what it is made of please ?
Also did you lay the mat up to the Board edge.

Thanks,

Steve.

[jim s-w]

One final point - we should all of us avoid being too dogmatic about "what is best" - it depends on what you are doing. If I were building a "Stoke Summit" type layout (which I would not), I too would build the odd few bits of pointwork on the bench then stick everything down and ballast in one go. However, that is not the nature of my current layout, and for complex pointwork - be it at Minories or at Birmingham New Street - it not quite so simple. So horses, as ever, for courses and for me, "build in situ" was right for this situation. It also worked for Jim S-W and his layout is no country branch line either!

True - I'm not smart enough to figure out how to do it the other way! To add further options I haven't used any underlay and the track is stuck directly to the baseboard (Ok the template then the baseboard) with superglue. It doesnt move at all. As I will never be able to run at home noise isnt an issue.

Cheers

Jim

[Will L]

To add further options I haven't used any underlay and the track is stuck directly to the baseboard (Ok the template then the baseboard) with superglue.

Now superglue, that does set very hard. Not that I think that matters.

Will

[allanferguson]

My plain track is mostly C & L ready made track which was laid direct on the foam, using, where appropriate, straightedges to line it up. The point and crossing work was built off baseboard on bits of MDF with the Templot templates stuck to them with spraymount or similar, then transferred to the baseboard. The sleepering is stuck to the template with narrow strips of double sided tape Because my track represents pre 1900 Scottish prototype it has loose heel switches, interlaced timbering, etc, and will rapidly unravel if you try to take it off whatever it's fastened to. So I tack solder several lengths of scrap rail across the top of the formation to let me lift it safely; this can be unsoldered when everything is secure. I always lay the point and crossing work first, then join it up with plain track.

My camping mat is laid up to the board edge, but as noted previously I now regret using it atall.

Best of luck

Allan F

[Terry Bendall]

May I ask, was the track made on another material before fixing to the Camping Mat, and what it is made of please ?
Also did you lay the mat up to the Board edge.

From memory, and it is now a very long time ago, the turnouts were all built using ply and rivet on a building board and then transferred to the camping mat without the template. The camping mat was laid right to the baseboard joints, but only to the front edge where track comes that far, and there is not much of that. It can be seen in the retrospective for Scaleforum 2010.

Terry Bendall

[beachboy]

Terry / Allen - Thankyou for your replies. Having Base Boards built much akin to the design Terry detailed in the S4 News, but substituted MDF for the deck. I have been assessing the glue / sound / track laying methods. In view of the time & energies that go into building these projects, getting it right first time is paramount given past experiences, and life does not always guarantee time to keep learning from mistakes. I remember Barry doing a talk at a HMRS meeting at Brighton London Road Station presenting a base board. Ply Wood X brace, & the deck screwed & removable. I had just built same; it was that board in a quiet spare room that my 5yr old son was fascinated pushing an Eric Gates Brighton wagon up & down - smooth. I was becoming aware of the repeated noise coming from the board.
Firstly, possibly by nature, I tire subjectively from intrusive noise over a period of time. Unlike an Exhibition, late at night in a quiet room I do not want unwanted distractions to my illusion of a 4mm modelworld.
I made a 3ft 6'' curve glued to artist card & glued with Vinyl or Acrylic Carpet glue ( no latex as I said above in error ). Being something to test a chassis sideplay. Although I have since made a base board for this. I laid this on C&L Foam which is akin to a Mouse Mat foam. It is noisy. Running a sprung wagon over it, the card amplifies the sound to a 'tinny' sound. If I lay a piece of flexi track direct on the foam - a nice qiuet rumble - sounds quite good.
I dug out the Carpet Mat to compare. It was still good, but the C&L had the edge. So where is this noise ?
I removed the MDF and substituted a piece of Ply. Noisy. Which made me reflect on my guitars being made of ply veneer, old one glued with pva. New one - well its the same colour as the carpet glue.

With glues, I want something that does not add to amplifying the transit over the permanent way. It may be minimal between pvacetate, and the carpet stuff. But a need for a tacky grip to hold ballast, wanting my boards to be movable is also paramount.
So I tried a comparison. Room 20oC. An offcut of MDF with a thick blob & thin spread of the two glues. The thin spread of pva with no resin or water additive was workable for 10mins. The thick wanted to skin over after 15 - 20mins.
Carpet glue - well after 2 hrs I could lift the board with it stuck to my finger. Three hours I put some ballast on it and turned the board over & hit it with a hammer. Nothing budged.
The following morning I hit it again - still where I want it. The pva was dry clear. Doesn't go hard ? I hit it several times hard without even a scratch. I am not suprised some gamers use it over varnish to protect their figures.
I tried to drill into the carpet glue. Well it does take several days to cure, so I made an indent with a punch point. All I got on the drill bit was MDF swarf. Was there any swelling of the MDF from either glue - no. In fact I have glued a Paint Station out of virgin mdf- Games Workshop style design and its fine after several years of splattering. In fact I could seal it with the pva.

The other concern I have with pva, is that I have broken up several woodwork projects and wondered why the steel screws were corroded. In fact I did stir up a tub of pva with a Stanley Screwdriver, & it now looks like it has been recovered from the Titanic. Ballasting would be up to steel rail as in the early days. Although its not easy to avoid it touching the rail when ballasting.

Still I will go away and leave others to decide their choices. If there is something even better, then I would like to learn about it.

Steve.

[SteamAle]

Many many years ago one Ross Pochin used several different types of underlay on his Haverthwaite layout. Baseboards were wood frames topped with hardboard, ex government type.
One type of underlay was linoleum (lino) tiles. Very solid and hard. The layout was stored in a wooden garage and high summer heat, remember those days? caused the lino to melt and bubble up through the sleepers totally destroying the track. Where it is still OK it is very noisy. The interesting part is on the underground where he used rubber carpet underlay about 3/8ths of an inch thick. This is very quiet and sometimes hard to judge where a train is until crossing rails joints when there is a very audible clickity click! After 50 years the rubber is starting to deteriorate but then how many of us keep a layout for this length of time?
I'm not certain what glue has been used and very little of the track has been ballasted, a representation of ash is all there is. Other parts have cork or just card sleepers laid straight onto wood across the viaducts.

On my most recent layout I have used 'shellac' to stick both track and ballast down. I went off using PVA because you can't make changes if needed, which I always seem to do! Methylated spirit softens the shellac allowing track to be lifted and moved if necessary. Smells nice but does dry the skin out if gloves are not worn.

Philip

[beachboy]

Philip,

Shellac sounds interesting to try out.
I like the flexibility of being able to change and salvage a lot of hard work, and even Railways altered their Perm. Way.
Is it the automotive resin polish or varnish. Can one pack it in for scale depth sleepers. And I trust it grips - ?
Please.

Steve.

[Philip Hall]

I wrote earlier in this topic about my use of Copydex for sticking the track down. Reading subsequents posts it occurs to me I didn't mention the baseboard construction, which were re-used and adapted from a lifting section my father had made for a previous layout. Dad always built things very strongly, so they were half inch chipboard on a softwood frame; I topped them with a half inch layer of wood fibre insulation board. This was very solid, no chance of a sag at all. The thin cork underlay was glued with Evo-Stik Impact to the fibre board, and the track held in place with office pins over the rails whilst the glue set. I think I got some of this from Iain Rice, certainly the office pins to mark the alignment, and of course these were easy to push into the fibre board. Another advantage of the fibre board was being able to sculpt minor variations in level in the terrain.

The only problem was that this was very heavy, especially since two boards were hinged together. OK for home use, although this was an exhibition layout then, and I had the boards already made from a previous layout. However, I am contemplating doing much the same on the new project, but this is going to be permanent and therefore weight is not a problem.

Philip

[steve howe]

Not wishing to re-open the noise v PVA debate, but can anyone suggest an alternative for holding ballast down? I have recently laid some ply and rivet trackwork on my new plank, and used Copydex to stick the sleepers to cork underlay, which itself was stuck down with Evo-Stik Timebond. I believe Copydex is difficult to dilute and I can't think of any other adhesive (other than diluted PVA) for fixing ballast. My ballast will be mainly ash and cinders as befits the location in a lightly used rural goods depot. I am wondering if the 'washable' PVA that Keith referred to earlier in this thread used by schools, which is softer and more flexible when set than the normal woodworking types, might be worth a try?

Steve

[LesGros]

steve howe wrote:

Not wishing to re-open the noise v PVA debate, but can anyone suggest an alternative for holding ballast down?

You could try Johnsons Klear (pledge); totally useless for holding track down, but, like any other varnish it will hold ballast. It has the virtue of being relatively cheap as long as you avoid the ebay rip-off-merchants

[steve howe]

Thanks Les,
I have some Klear somewhere that I used for sticking coach glazing in place, I also stumbled over this thread which covers the matter in some depth.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=312

Perhaps I ought to trawl the forums more meticulously.....but then, when would any modelling get done?

Good to see from your own thread that you're cracking on with the English fiddle yard, good luck with the wiring....we are just about to tackle Watermouth this winter now we have room in the Clubroom to set it up.

Steve

[Tim V]

Have a talk with Bernie Baker at Scaleforum, his layout Allt-y-Graban Road has no PVA on it anywhere.

[beachboy]

As previously referred to, I glued down some track ( ply sleepers Exacto chairs ) & ballast with Stikatak vinyl Carpet etc glue as recommended to me by a Carpet Layer.

I recently lifted some of the track by slicing a new Stanley blade under said track. The track, ballast, and glue held together and came away ready to re-use. Nothing broke, and the ballast was all still intact. One turnout without rails yet fixed came up, and would flex in an S shape without any ballast removing.

Steve.

[AnthonyFerguson]

In the last couple of months I read about some type of floor polish or sealer, not Klere which I gather is not so easy to get[?], being used instead of PVA for securing ballast. It was said to have some visual advantage [PVA tending to tint the ballast slightly I think?] as well as being cheap.
The trouble is that now I can't find the article. Does anyone else remember it or could you identify the product please? I am about to embark on my first go at ballasting in a very long time, and it is on a fairly large scale so I want to try out a few techniques first.

[David Thorpe]

As I mentioned in our private exchange, the whole business of sticking Templates permanently to a baseboard is fraught with potential disasters and I only narrowly avoided a couple of them! No one seems to have said too much about this so I am guessing that there is not yet much experience out there.

I have just "mastered" Templot sufficiently to do a full size print out of my proposed layout (30 or so sheets of A4, carefully stuck together). It involves nine sets of points and quite a lot of plain track. I'm currently building the points off layout, using the templates individually printed off my Templot plan. Other than that, however, if I can't or shouldn't stick the whole plan directly to the baseboard and/or underlay when it comes to track laying the point of using Templot seems considerably diminished. If I stick the plan down I'll know precisely where to lay the points and plain track - if I don't I won't and things are bound to go awry. I was proposing to stick it using a Photomount type of spray adhesive, but am now concerned about the "potential disasters" you mention but on which you don't elaborate!

DT

[dal-t]

In the last couple of months I read about some type of floor polish or sealer, not Klere which I gather is not so easy to get[?], being used instead of PVA for securing ballast.

I must have missed the recent discussion, but having been dissatisfied with PVA for some time I tried the original formula Klear on outdoor O gauge, where it gave a good, hard finish to the ballast and unlike PVA it didn't seem to excite the appetites of garden 'monsters' (I had previously wondered why 'holes' were appearing where I was sure I had laid solid ballast, until I spotted a line of ants removing it grain by grain - quite fascinating really). The prospect of reballasting the whole line was too daunting, and in any case I decided the Klear was more valuable for coating canopies and settling decals in my aircraft modelling, but I know that cheaper alternatives including Astonish 'Flawless' and Rustin's 'Floor Shine' have been used successfully (for ballast, not aircraft). Of course, Humbrol now do their own version of 'Klear', but at £4.99 for 125ml it is a horrendously expensive way to go.

[Martin Wynne]

I have just "mastered" Templot sufficiently to do a full size print out of my proposed layout (30 or so sheets of A4, carefully stuck together). It involves nine sets of points and quite a lot of plain track. I'm currently building the points off layout, using the templates individually printed off my Templot plan. Other than that, however, if I can't or shouldn't stick the whole plan directly to the baseboard and/or underlay when it comes to track laying the point of using Templot seems considerably diminished. If I stick the plan down I'll know precisely where to lay the points and plain track - if I don't I won't and things are bound to go awry.

Hi Davey,

I prefer not to to leave the template in place under the track. My preferred approach:

1. print 2 sets of the templates. Assemble one set into a full track diagram. Use the other set on the bench for trackbuilding. For reference each page is numbered in the corner inside the trim margins. (There is an option in Templot to increase the font size for those numbers if they are difficult to see.)

2. build the various track items and units.

Now you need a supply of 1" veneer pins (like panel pins, but thinner) from any DIY place.

For plain track:

3. tape the track diagram in place on the bare baseboard with masking tape. Cut away the blank areas between the tracks so that you can do this.

4. tap in a row of veneer pins along the track centre-lines, through the paper templates. Tap them in about half-way.

5. carefully untape and lift away the track diagram over the pins.

6. lay and fix chamfered cork half-roadbeds (C&L/Carrs/other?) with the square edge of each half against the pins. A slight gap down the centre-line between the two halves is of no consequence.

7. when the glue has set, pull out the pins.

8. punch some holes in the track diagram, along the centre lines.

9. tape it back over the cork, using the holes to align it over the joint lines in the cork roadbed.

For areas of pointwork, yards, station throats, junctions, etc., you can lay a full sheet of cork instead of the roadbed strips, taping the track plan to the cork, and omitting 4 to 9 above. Then:

10. carefully align the assembled track items loose on top of track diagram.

11. for each track item, insert veneer pins at a few strategic positions in the corners between the rails and timbers, so that the track is fully located all ways without any play. Keep the pins as vertical as possible, tapping them in about half way.

12. snip the heads off the pins with strong end nippers (wear eye protection). (Catch the heads, if you don't want to find them later attached to motor magnets and jamming mechanisms.)

13. carefully prise up the track items from between the pins. Without heads on the pins you can do this without disturbing the pins.

14. cut away and remove the relevant part of the track diagram. Make sure other parts of the diagram are sufficiently taped down to remain undisturbed when you do this.

15. apply latex adhesive (Copydex) or contact adhesive to the cork (don't use pva adhesive unless you want noisy track set in concrete).

16. carefully align and drop the track item back over the pins. Firm it down. (Make sure you catch your fingers on the sharp tops of the pins -- bloodstained plywood is just the right colour. )

17. apply ballast now if you wish (quick) or later after the track is wired up, tested and running for a better result.

18. when the glue has set, pull out the pins.

Above copied from: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/temp ... opics/7652

Templot2 now includes an option to show the ballast edges and cess lines on the templates. So the above method can be modified to use plain sheets of cork for plain track and cut to the ballast edges directly. There is a gadget available for picture framers which cuts cork at 45 degrees to make a chamfered edge. It should be nearer 30 degrees for ballast shoulders, but the difference is easily lost in the ballasting.





The trackbed edges function can be set to show either the cutting lines for open top baseboards, or the prototypical ballast edge and cess width as above. Click the geometry > trackbed intent > menu options.

regards,

Martin.

[David Thorpe]

Thanks, Martin. Very grateful for this.

DT

[Serjt-Dave]

Hi All, just been reading some of this thread, and what I have gathered is that you glue your cork or foam underlay onto your baseboard using PVA or a contact adhesive. Your track {minus the template} onto the underlay using a flexible adhesive like copydex, evo-stick spray mount etc. and your ballast using a watered down PVA.

It was also mentioned using a double sided tape to fix your track to the underlay? Would not the PVA from ballasting degrade the tape?

Regards

Dave

[beachboy]

If one applies PVA to an absorbant material, it will soak in and set rock hard. Subsequently, any foam / cork etc will lose its value.
Copydex has a very short working time, and has a stringy property like chewing gum.

Neither of these products will provide an even flat workable sticky surface, unless if able to dilute for a spraygun.
PVA works well for strengthning plaster, or adding to cement.

If one thinks of a laying carpet tiles over a large room area, a sticky, actively long and reusable glue is required.
If the tile ( or whatever ) is misplaced, it can come up & repositioned with no detrement .
A spray can of Antiplas vinyl spray will provide a such flat sticky surface, or a tub of similar for thicker depth glueing jobs.
The Antiplas is much the same as the Woodland Scenics product for their quality vinyl scenic mats. B&Q, & other trade supplers. I was given mine by a furniture / carpet trader on the strength it was for a model railway.

I have used this type of glue on a growing number of projects and materials, without problems.
Recently glued wood sleepers to a brass sheet with a strong bond and saved on mixing the Araldite, for example, and thence changed a 9inch to a 12inch sleeper and day later - same glue.

Unfortunately, some glues will set a long term layout project once in stone, until sold or scraped.

Steve.

[Russ Elliott]

If one applies PVA to an absorbant material, it will soak in and set rock hard. Subsequently, any foam / cork etc will lose its value.

This is true to an extent, but I have found that cork stuck down with a thin layer of PVA still retains a good degree of resilience on its top surface, even with 1.5mm (1/16") cork.

I agree that PVA is not suitable if wanting to reposition or lift the cork later, but I can't see this is a common need.

[Will L]

If one applies PVA to an absorbant material, it will soak in and set rock hard. Subsequently, any foam / cork etc will lose its value.

This is true to an extent, but I have found that cork stuck down with a thin layer of PVA still retains a good degree of resilience on its top surface, even with 1.5mm (1/16") cork.

It's would only be true if the cork/foam was absorbent, some open cell foams are, but many of the ones we use for scenic work and track underlay aren't open cell. Cork sheet isn't more than marginally absorbent either, hence your observation Russ.

One of the reasons people have trouble with PVA is that they use too much and don't dilute it enough. You will be surprised just how far you can dilute the stuff and still get a decent joint. Depends on what your gluing of course but I'd only use undiluted PVA on something that more rigid than an identifiable layer of PVA, like wood in a baseboard or coach glassing or my loco crew.

Will

[Paul Townsend]

Unfortunately, some glues will set a long term layout project once in stone, until sold or scraped.

Steve.

I have stuck down cork and black foam track underlay and track and ballast on top for 40+ years.
As others say, dilute it well, 50/50 or thinner so it is bump-free, weight it via a slab of wood to spread load, leave overnight and flat track results.

It is NOT set in stone in that some sound deadening occurs, the closed cell foam is non-absorbent.
I have also successfully lifted and salvaged track by painting with water, leave a couple of hours, prise up carefully with wide, thin bladed paint scraper. Ballast, cork, foam and droppers are sacrificed, track is reusable. Success achieved with plastic sleepered Ratio and proper wood sleepered Brook-Smith track.

Copydex stinks and has stringy issues reported elsewhere so I would avoid. Carpet glue also used here recently but no relifting tried yet. Antiplas is an interesting newer option to consider but no experience here yet.