Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:22 am

Knuckles wrote:This may seem a silly question but how much experimenting do you need before your ready to officially be a P4 modeller? so far I've made two turnouts, a handfull of wagons- most kit built with Bill Bedford sprung W-irons and one Heljan Hymek conversion. That is currently where I am. I'd like advice as to next 'test', as I am unsure what would be good. Was thinking maybe do a turnout with 'loose timbers from a paper template-possibly with a slight curve added. Maybe a crossover would be a better test. Any ideas would be great. :-)


Hi Knuckles,

I'd say that you've successfully "made it out of the armchair"! You've certainly managed more modelling in the last three months than I have been able to do.

You've proved that you can do the fundamentals. Now everything else becomes adding knowledge, skills and enjoyment (the last is the most important thing!) one step at a time.

Well done :-)

Flymo
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:56 am

I would say that you have done enough, if you want to build a layout, draw up a plan and get on with it, then you learn as you go.
Regards
Keith


Coming from you Keith, a man with much experience whom I respect-that's an encouraging compliment. Thanks. :)

I've already drawn up a plan and I made a thread for it, please see what you think if you have time. There are a couple of difficulties though that might persuade me to kill the bottom half almost.

--

Thanks Flymo, you've always been quick to help and encourage me too, I appreciate it.

Just out of interest how long have you been 'in the game'? :D

-I think I might try a curved turnout with loose timbers next but unsure. Can't do a layout yet as I'm sorting the loft out still, brought some hard board and timber for the walls yesterday though.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:19 pm

I've already drawn up a plan and I made a thread for it, please see what you think if you have time. There are a couple of difficulties though that might persuade me to kill the bottom half almost.

OK, since you ask I will add some suggestions to your layout topic. I think I agree about the bottom half, that's where I would do things differently. Assuming your plan is on 12" squares my space is similar, a couple of feet shorter and a couple wider.
Regards
Keith

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:38 pm

Thanks Keith. I did read the responce before but have been chewing on it. The squares do represent 1 foot. I find feet and inches easier to work with for big areas and mm's, CM's and M's for bigger. The bottom half I'm still undecided upon but will probably just have either a fiddle yard or scenic pass, or both seperately for modular style. Unsure yet.

Now I really need help.

Progress in the loft has finally started to get under way, pics below. Just putting some hard board up to cover the bricks and be a basic sky wall but another backscene will probably cover it anyway. Dabbled for a while weather to use plasterboard or hardboard but decided upon hard board. If it warps I'll just have to redo it!

Image
Image


Now whilst we are doing the loft I can't do a layout, that goes without saying, but in the mean time after reading Ian Rice's 2 books on trackbuilding and revising the S4 digest sheets I've decided to do a bit of track building; something which will probably be a bit too hard and thus I'm likely to make a pigs ear of it. However, It's a formation planned on the layout in the other thread (Top right of Station left of bridge) so if I make a success of it I can install it sometime probably. If I make a balls up then it'll be good practice to learn from. It's a B7L and single slip to match with straight 60FT sections. The plan in Anyrail in the other thread has a 1/8 Single slip but I'd like to use a 1/7 to shave a bit of space and get a slightly longer bottom platform. So far it seems to be lining up fine with tracks parallel etc. This is where I need help.......

1) Am I correct in thinking the parallel tracks inbetween platforms would be minimum width? I'd like it this way as I like the look, plus would that be ok on 46 and 48" curves either side?

2) Going with above idea I have to get the slip very close to the turnout resulting in the frogs having a smooch. No problem for building (he says), but how in the world am I supposed to keep them seperated for electrical breaks? Electrics is an area where I'm not that great even though I've read up alot on it. Any ideas? :shock:

3) Also should you always use a slip/diamond of matching frog angle to adjacient points? I don't know, but have done it here.

Image

Image

Image

Note: If I do build it then I'm not sure weather I'll carefull peel the formation off the paper or just cut around the paper and use that to lay giving added strength and reducing breakage risk. I've read both methods are used.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:02 pm

1) Am I correct in thinking the parallel tracks inbetween platforms would be minimum width? I'd like it this way as I like the look, plus would that be ok on 46 and 48" curves either side?
Yes, keep the platform tracks to minimum spacing for best effect, with 48 inch radius you should be OK at minimum spacing but its best to check first with your stock, if you are into 70ft coaches such as MK3s then you may need to ease things out a bit, easily done in the transition to the curves.

2) Going with above idea I have to get the slip very close to the turnout resulting in the frogs having a smooch. No problem for building (he says), but how in the world am I supposed to keep them seperated for electrical breaks? Electrics is an area where I'm not that great even though I've read up alot on it. Any ideas?
You just have to put the rail gaps so that the two rails of any track are always seperated, its easy enough to locate suitable rail joints to use, I'll see if I can do you a sketch. the trickiest bit in doing a formation like that is to sort out the timbering, those in the frog area will need to go right across.

3) Also should you always use a slip/diamond of matching frog angle to adjacient points? I don't know, but have done it here.
In a crossover formation like this, yes keep all the angles the same. If its a diamond in a double junction then not always, they are often curved so the diamond will have 3 different angles. Your existing plan needs some of those, although I would recommend deleting them.

The loft is looking good.
Regards
Keith

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks Keith, your a star. :) Thanks about the loft too.

I don't plan on using Mk3's, Mk1's and other 'typical' express length coaches would be my biggest. I wasn't planning on having transition curves though, I know it's not the best option but if I do have them then I won't be able to have the removable 9ft section that joins straight at each end (for other modules one day). This could be an issue so unsure what to do. :?

With the crossovers I've scrapped the bendy diamond ideas on either extreem side. Way to complex for my liking, especially with A5 turnouts. I'm looking at other options.

The cutting of the frogs shouldn't be an issue but then it's going to be super weak because there will only be a chair or few holding each secure - that's my other concirn with it.

1) Should the check rails in frog area just continue into the next frog area? Seems abit pointless keeping them seperate having looked at the proximity - unsure what's prototypical here to be honest.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:59 pm

I've cut the templates so they now join together in alignment best I can with a dap of double sided tabe under (diagonal strip). Now it's clear what I mean about joining the check rails from each bit of P&C to form a continious example - is this the best thing to do as they are so close.

The other reason I've took this pic is to show where I think the straight timbering needs to go. how's this slooking? The left frog is supported so 5 monster timbers and for the exit tracks back to standard sleepers?

Image


EDIT: Upon further reflection I think I might have to add another 4 or 5 monster timbers. Hmm.


Also I might buy some rivets. I don't intend on doing Ply and Rivet construction but I can see the value of adding a few in key areas for strength.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:12 pm

Now it's clear what I mean about joining the check rails from each bit of P&C to form a continious example - is this the best thing to do as they are so close.

Prototypes vary in this detail, but joining the check rails to the wing rails is common and its the way I prefer it.
The cutting of the frogs shouldn't be an issue but then it's going to be super weak because there will only be a chair or few holding each secure - that's my other concirn with it.
I would not create a joint so close to the frog where you have shown, its better to extend the splice rail of the frog and have an insulated joint at the stock rail joint clear of the check rails.
The other reason I've took this pic is to show where I think the straight timbering needs to go. how's this slooking?

I would suggest all of the timbers from no 32 on the slip up to number 28 on the turnout should be long timbers right across, and keep them all at 90 degrees to the frog centrelines, ie parallel to the existing timbers in the slip. This should give you 7 long timbers, the rest can then be fitted in around them. NB The middle on of the 7 may need to be in two parts to keep the frog chairs at the correct spacing, this was also common on the real thing.
Regards
Keith.

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:34 pm

Your construction log is fascinating as it asks all the questions I either hadn't thought of or didn't dare ask ;)

I am currently building a crossover with a curved B8 and straight B7 point - the B8 is left-handed and the B7 right-handed. I joined up the check rails, but the relative positions of the 2 turnouts made this more inevitable than in your case. The 2 tracks get much further apart to the right of the photo to allow room for a platform. Therefore, the sleeper positions and angles are likely to be nothing like what you need.

I plan on putting the insulation gaps for the frogs well away from the crossing noses - I have taken a photo and added red rings roughly where I think they will be, though I will probably use the real rail joint positions at the switch end of the turnout, which are slightly further away from the crossings. The crossing noses are hand-made, so I have been able to make the noses out of much longer rails than normal.

DSCF1432.jpg


The B8 is bottom left and the B7 top right.

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work! :thumb

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:I joined up the check rails, but the relative positions of the 2 turnouts made this more inevitable than in your case.

Hi AM,

In that case you may need to check that you have a full 6ft way between the outer tracks. If this spacing dimension is less than 44.67mm (which is probably the case in this picture), you may not have sufficient clearance to have stock using both roads simultaneously. Even if they just clear for model purposes, it will be non-prototypical for most situations:

ac_centres.png
ac_centres.png (83.45 KiB) Viewed 6097 times

regards,

Martin.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:35 pm

Thanks Martin, but everything is Ok - just. I could claim prototypical accuracy in any case, as the real thing had very tight clearances. :thumb

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Thanks Keith, I have Done what you suggested but added 1 more long one to help sleeper interlacing. I found that because of the different way of sleepering things the plain track templates are now in the wrong place, so I've had to put the sleepers close to the printed sleepers and not on them. This is ok at the top left as I still have 26 sleepers thus equating one 60 foot track panel but the bottom right only has 24 now. Directly after that there will probably be a curve so unsure what the answer to this is - ignore it and make a shorter panel? It's not like I'm going to really know better but I'd like to get things right all the same.



In responce to Keith and Armchair Modeller I too thought about cutting the frog on the stock rail but thought it might be a bit overkill being so far away - not to mention confusing with wiring. I'm scared of wiring, never done it before! last layout was clip points together, clip power cord in and off we go; didn't work well and some points didn't work at all. I wonder why!

Your picture of the check rails cum wing rails are very interesting and what I was thinking mighht be the best option, good to see what it looks like in model form and good to know it is a genuine prototype option, so thanks for you both there.

My log is facinating? Cheers. :D I'm still a P4 n00b though!

Here are two pics of the timbering/sleepering progress. On reflection I tihnk I might have to get the Master template out so I can see all the template detail. Sadly there are 12 inch wide angular logs in the way.

Image
Image


The other day after recieving an order from C&L (the next day! took me by supprise, Kudos to them) I went to Ryman's and brought an A3 folder to house some templates in. I thought it a good investment to buy the £34 job lot of popular templates so to have a bank of masters to do photocopy print runs off. As it happens when I went in Ryman's to buy the folder I also had a few photocopies done, owing to my previous problems of home printing track 3% too small I made her check, and when she wasn't sure I asked if I could borrow a ruler. She had to open a fresh one. I don't like being an awkward git but it's important!

There's something beautiful and professional about having a dedicated template book, all with protective sleeving, just something about it that I really like. :shock: wheeooooo

Image
Image
Image
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And just for the fun of it, just took this picture as opportunity rose.

Image

:D I mean :shock: Surely.. :? oh never mind. :P
A pair of wee monsters.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:42 pm

I have marked up your pic to show where I would put the insulated joints, my preference is in red lettered A-M, in some cases alternative locations are shown in green with matching letters.
PIC_3368kn.jpg
Note the red H is close to the switch tips to avoid the check rail, the green H can be used but needs matching joints in checkrail and frog splice rail which is a bit fiddly. Green M does not have a suitable close spaced pair of timbers except in longer turnouts so I prefer to use the red M where there is always a prototype joint. Green K and L are always viable alternatives to the red K and L, just personal preference. The red C and E allows a stronger frog and keeps the wing rail joints where they are easier to assemble, the green C and E would have to be used if it was a double slip to clear the blade tips.
Regards
Keith

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:08 pm

"In responce to Keith and Armchair Modeller I too thought about cutting the frog on the stock rail but thought it might be a bit overkill being so far away - not to mention confusing with wiring. I'm scared of wiring, never done it before! last layout was clip points together, clip power cord in and off we go; didn't work well and some points didn't work at all. I wonder why!

Your picture of the check rails cum wing rails are very interesting and what I was thinking mighht be the best option, good to see what it looks like in model form and good to know it is a genuine prototype option, so thanks for you both there.

My log is facinating? Cheers. :D I'm still a P4 n00b though!"


Keith's suggestions about where to put the cuts won't seriously affect the wiring - I am sure you can get plenty of advice on that when the time comes. Glad my picture was of help ;) I am a n00b too - at least for P4, so don't think you are the only one, not by a long way. Don't let it discourage you from having a go 8-)

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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:50 am

Knuckles wrote:Thanks Flymo, you've always been quick to help and encourage me too, I appreciate it.

Just out of interest how long have you been 'in the game'? :D


Hi Knuckles,

The answer is, on and off, a long time... I joined the Scalefour Society when I was 17, having had a brief six-month flirtation with EM, and before that I'd thought about 2mm finescale.

Then came time out for studying, girls, racing motorbikes, etc, etc. It's only in the last couple of years that I've had the spare time to pick it up again, and even then I can go a good couple of months at a time that mean that work keeps me too busy to lift a soldering iron :-(

So in comparison, you're making great progress :-)

Flymo
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:02 pm

Thanks Keith, that's a big help. I've mulled it over and still unsure on the best course of action, so I've decided to leave it until later as I can just make a cut with a slitting disk if nessasary. I have however took your preference in mind regarding using a prototypical rail joint so in the curved stock rail of the B7 turnout I've only made the rail go up to the joint.

In truth I did actually have the whole stock rail and bottom left V in one peice but it has took me so many hours to do a V that I'm happy enough with that the rail got considerably shorter! Still not 100% happy but convinced it'll be acceptable as it's minimal, I'm just picky. Took about 6 attempts, and that's my 2nd ever V, 3rd if you count the test V I havn't posted. That I think will fit far bottm left of slip.

Thanks to Armchair Modeller and Flymo for the encouragment and replies, also thanks to Flymo for the PM. :)

Little progress report now. I booked a half day off at work today (mega rare) so used most the time to do some serious track bashing. I don't think I have done everything in the official order but things seem to be going ok so far, I just remember to not glue everything down so it can be gauged later, already had to slice some chairs off due to forgetting! I'm using the top stock rail as the initial datum with which V's and other parts of the formation can be gauged downwards from.

The first V I ever made (a few days ago) was done on a peice of graph paper with a 1 in 7 line and angle drawn, held in place with bluetack for positioning and soldering. In truth I think this is easy enough and a jig isn't that nessasary. It's the angle filing that's a pig, I decided however to make a jig seeing as it's supposed to make easier. Below is my 3rd attempt.
Image

I'm still not that happy with it though, the balsa strip doesn't keep shape that well so will probably remake one. Again though, it's the filing of the V's that takes about 6 attempts - well, for me it is doing anyway. Another problem I'm having is the tip turning into silver leaf due to it being so thin. It bends, and crisps away into bugger all ruining your angle, that's another to watch out for. :?


Anyway, I'm babbleing.

Thankyou again Slater, your 3-link coupling containers are brilliant! (As are your couplings)
Image

2nd V to go bottom, 1st was fit last night (top middle of formation)
Image

In place by the 1st V is my wing/knuckle rail. This isn't perfect
just the flair area seems abit more loose. I need new pliers I think as they don't bend things accurately.
Image

Wanting to do it 'all by myself' and wanting to avoid the extra cost I decided to have a go at making the switch blades, I started by filing an awful lot on the desk and hurting my wrist holding it down. Upon repeated checks it was clear I was piddeling in the wind so I got the mini drill out, selected a fat sander and voila! One switch blade. One side is flush, the other retains the bottom lip but removes the top. I have however made a wee cock up at the end due to me zipping it too thin and it disintegrating into nothing, but I'll get by. As long as things function that's all I'm primaraly concerned with at this stage - extra asthetics and perfections come with practice. I do understand that this little mistake means the wheel will enter the blade at a slightly different time but I'll offset it slightly by the other blade. Oh yeah, I did the curved one, think I was supposed to do the straight one 1st, eugh, seems to be working anyway!
Image
Image

I've been using an Exactoscale +1 roller in the switch area and also remembered to add a 'set' this time. I have however found it a pain due to the rail energies going all over the place and me spending ages tweaking and re-checking everything, but that is how P4 modelling is, isn't it?

Formation thus far. My trucks seem happy and I can't feel any horrid jolts so that's encouraging. Frog roll tests seem perfect.
Image

Image

8-) Again if I make a royal balls up of this project it'll be good practice, but if I can pull it off then I'll be a very happy bunny. So far we are ok. (or I am :D )
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:03 pm

Just realised I put a load of standard chairs where slide ones need to be at top right of the slip. Good job I only glued one chair down init!? Sorted now. I am a trifle unsure where to go from here though. The standard turnout needs another wing/knuckle rail, straight switch blade and check rails added, but for the slip I'm unsure.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:50 pm

Knuckles wrote: 8-) Again if I make a royal balls up of this project it'll be good practice, but if I can pull it off then I'll be a very happy bunny. So far we are ok. (or I am :D )

You're going great guns! And just the right attitude to have - practice makes perfect, but don't get too precious about it :-)

Regarding the vee-jig, you'll get better results using almost anything else other than balsa. It's far too soft to press up against and will scorch more easily than a hardwood.

Not that you need something from machine-planed sycamore or something exotic. I have a similar set of jigs glued to a corner of my workbench made from just a couple of Society sleepers on top of each other.

Vee Jigs 002.jpg


Cheers
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:08 pm

Thanks Flymo, I have found like you said the balsa seems abit flimsy, it was to hand though. I haven,t hard wood but sleeper or timberimg strip seems a good idea.

Good news on the turnout progress, save for the stretcher bars, electrical mods and check rails the standard turnout is complete! I found out when I came back from work that the start of the turnout had worked itself under gauge so a little scooping of the chairs was in order, turns out the pressures of the much too generious 'set' won the fight, mini tweak later and it was sorted filing the straight closure/switch rail was a little easier than the curved one. honestly, using the mini drill makes short work of it. It isn't the neatest of jobd and the transition could be better but its working. I made sure it was a generohs clearence this time so aswell as giving it a set I have also used the plus one gauge
I'm happy to say my wagons are rolling through the turnout both ways happily and with no check rails; the V crossing seems smooth too, no noticable bumps and jumps.

Image
Image
Image
Image

where do I start for the slip?? ?? Help!

one of yhe flairs is abit too pronounced but I'm not to fussed yet.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:07 pm

For the slip, the next rail to install is the rail opposite the crossing vee, this rail extends right along the edge to become opposite the frog at the other end, make the bend in the centre accurately to the template then you can position it with a gauge off the frog and a ruler from the other side of the frog to pick up the rail at the bend, I'd draw it for you but no time just now. Once that rail is in place do the other vee, gauging similarly from the rail you just put in and with a ruler to line it up. From there on the order doesn't matter much as there should always be a rail you can gauge from or line up with. My preference would be the wing rails then the straight stock rails, after that the remaining curved stock rail, then the switches and last of all the two check rails in the centre K crossings.
Regards
Keith

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Andy W
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Andy W » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:35 pm

I've got to say that I admire your spirit and energy Knuckles. And it's heartening to see so much support from Keith and the others. This thread is a real advert for this forum.
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Thanks Ealing, I must support the latter half of your sentence especially. Ever since I plucked courage to give P4 a go and joined S4 members have been brilliant. I've never been on a forum other than S4 where people genuinly seem to care as much, also I'm still amazed at their endurance for putting up with so many questions from me. I'm a question machine. I have thanked people multiple times and still do.

Needless to say as a pretty new member my expectations and satisfaction of everything is surpassed by a mile.

Thanks guys. :-)
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:44 pm

Yet another update! Taking Keith's advice the ... 'kinked stock rail thing' has been gauged off the bottom V, glued in place. Then the far V (my first ever test V) was fitted and the stock rail. Also I've added one set of wing rails, this wasn't without issues as I had to lift them and get fresh chairs. I did think the V was to high but it turns out I used so much butanone that the chairs upon finger pressureturned into a sort of useless mush and as a result didn't do a very impressive job! 2nd attempt sorted it. Seems that the wing rail fixtures aren't amazingly stro g once you've sliced the chair edges but I think a future dodge could be to use a few rivets or a blob of thick superglue. It is ok though, any issues and it'll have to be sorted there and then.


Image


Image
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Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:22 pm

It's all looking very impressive, Knuckles. Just don't light a cigarette in the workshop for a few days ;) Well done :thumb

doktorstamp
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:07 am

Re: Knuckles's Turnout Construction Log

Postby doktorstamp » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:17 am

I too find this thread quite inspirational. Being like Knuckles a newbie to P4 who has acquired an awful lot of bits and pieces, but not found the time to put anything together, well at least of note.

What I particularly like about this thread are the answers or solutions to problems encountered. Certainly, as one person has stated, this thread is ammbassadorial for the society.

mfG

Nigel


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