Mystery tiebars

[Paul Willis]

Morning all!

I've had a phone call from a member of my area group who isn't on the Forum asking about tie-bars.

He's seen that on my test tracks I use a CBE ("Crude But Effective") functional tiebar:

IMG_3160.JPG

This is simply a couple of bits of bent steel wire, with an insulating piece of plastic tube (PTFE?) in between. I just get them out of a small plastic bag at the bottom of my track-building box...

mystery tiebar 001.jpg

Unfortunately I bought these so long ago that I have forgotten their origin! Does anyone recognise them, and can they provide details of the supplier?

I know that Ambis and Masokits both do some excellent and realistic tiebars, but they very much fail on the CBE test for someone that is trying to complete their first P4 turnout.

Cheers
Flymo

[steve howe]

I remember these being sold by the Stores a good few years ago, and they were very useful. They seem to be no longer listed but I'm sure I've seen something very similar on one of the track component suppliers stands at shows.

[Paul Willis]

I remember these being sold by the Stores a good few years ago, and they were very useful. They seem to be no longer listed but I'm sure I've seen something very similar on one of the track component suppliers stands at shows.

Thanks Steve - before posting, I did check the web for the two obvious suspects.

Exactoscale don't seem to list tiebars as a product, and although C&L do they don't give a picture. I'd also checked the Stores as well.

Any other hints would be appreciated...

Flymo

[newport_rod]

Flymo
I used those tie-bars on Llanastr and they're still performing satisfactorily after almost thirty years.If I could get hold of some more I would.
I believe that they were marketed under the brand name 'Ottowan'.
Cheers
Rod

[John Fitton]

I am almost certain these are the work of my friend Roger Eaton, here in Ottawa. About 1981 vintage, I would say. I have to chat with him later today, I'll ask him. I dont know how often he checks this forum.

John Fitton.

[Paul Willis]

I am almost certain these are the work of my friend Roger Eaton, here in Ottawa. About 1981 vintage, I would say. I have to chat with him later today, I'll ask him. I dont know how often he checks this forum.

John Fitton.

Hi John,

Thanks for the suggestion. It's highly probably that I would have got these from Stores - they have been in my "parts bin" for so long!

I know Roger, as for the last couple of years he has been across to Scaleforum and I have met him there. Indeed, there is a very nice picture of the adjusting device that he won the Deputy Chairman's Cup with in the latest edition of the News, which landed on my doormat this very morning

Cheers
Flymo

[craig_whilding]

The C+L tie bars are in insulating tube with wire coming out of the ends like those. I'll try to take a photo of one of the packs I inherited sometime. Only useful for old formations by my BR period.

Btw your sleepering in that turnout seems to have gone slightly awry as the blade ends should be supported on a timber with the stretcher slighter further from the tips.

[Paul Willis]

Btw your sleepering in that turnout seems to have gone slightly awry as the blade ends should be supported on a timber with the stretcher slighter further from the tips.

Hi Craig,

Dare I say it in these circles? I don't really care if it isn't prototypical

Actually, this is my test board for checking chassis, buffers and couplings on. This is the total extent of it:

IMG_3159.JPG

The plain track in the background has a magnet buried in it for testing Sprat & Winkle couplings, and the buffer stop is one of the AJ Height Gauges from the Stores, but modified to measure the loop height/width for the S&W rather than an AJ.

The turnout is a quick and dirty build of an A4. Basically a vehicle that can by pushed (or in the case of my HLK Pug chassis, driven) through this is a good candidate for staying in the rails through anything else. Also, the curvature lets you see if bits of bodywork are catching or similar.

It makes a neat tool that you can keep on your workbench for checking as you go along. Mine is only 32x19 cm in size so takes up nothing in space, and is made from an off-cut of a pine shelf. IMHO everyone should have something similar as an aid to modelling...

Flymo

[martin goodall]

I am almost certain these are the work of my friend Roger Eaton, here in Ottawa. About 1981 vintage, I would say. I have to chat with him later today, I'll ask him. I dont know how often he checks this forum.

John Fitton.

I can confirm that this was definitely the origin of this product ["Model Railways (Ottawa)"]. Unlike the Alan Gibson and C&L products, the PTFE tube would withstand the heat of soldering.

I used them both on my Crichel Down layout and, orignally on Burford, but had problems with the rather small contact area of the soldered joint fracturing. There were also issues with the tube flexing under tension. I doubled up these stretcher rods on Burford (as per prototype), but have now replaced most of them with something more robust. Crichel Down, on the other hand, still has its original stretcher rods (never let Peter Squibb hear you call them "tie-bars" !), but has not been run for many a long year.

I now prefer the Norman Solomon fibre-glass reinforced paxolin stretchers, with pins pivoting in holes in the stretcher, and bent over and soldered along the switch-blades. The stretcher bar is admittedly unprototypical, but fairly inconspicuous; but the important point is that it is robust and completely reliable. The soldered joint is under no strain, because the pins pivot in the stretcher. This product was describd in MRJ (round about 151 to 154? - sorry I can't remember exactly).

[Jan]

I now prefer the Norman Solomon fibre-glass reinforced paxolin stretchers, with pins pivoting in holes in the stretcher, and bent over and soldered along the switch-blades. The stretcher bar is admittedly unprototypical, but fairly inconspicuous; but the important point is that it is robust and completely reliable. The soldered joint is under no strain, because the pins pivot in the stretcher. This product was describd in MRJ (round about 151 to 154? - sorry I can't remember exactly).

Hello Martin, All

This article from the Gauge O Gazette may be of interest... and notes:

....More recently there was a general series of articles by Norman Solomon in Model Railway Journal, Nos 143, 144 and 146, 2003 followed by Making Tie Bars, Model Railway Journal, No 151, 2004

Cheers

Jan

[Mike Waldron]

Have just read this rather late in the day - but quite interesting still.

Why not arrange a jig to make the bends and produce your own in .7mm brass wire?
The bends can easily be 'crimped' tighter with a good pair of pliers.

Masokits did an etched bell crank that takes a rod filed to a 'D' shape soldered in to it; thereby giving mechanical assistance as well as solder strength.
The only problem is getting hold of a suitable insulating tube to link the two wires - such as will withstand heat and allow a smear of Araldite to keep it to gauge.

This enables a mechanical linkage to be sent up via K&L rod through a suitably close fitting tube in the baseboard and ending with the bell crank above board at the top, couple to such a wire tie bar - with no worries about glued ballast clogging up a tie bar!

Then you can use another one to attach the two rails in a more prototypical way - both of which allow the two rails to be electrically insulated from each other.

A variation was in the November (was it?) MRJ using a bit of PCB to do a similar job - though not quite so representative of round stretcher bars.

Mike

[Dave K]

I've had a phone call from a member of my area group who isn't on the Forum asking about tie-bars.

He's seen that on my test tracks I use a CBE ("Crude But Effective") functional tiebar:

Unfortunately I bought these so long ago that I have forgotten their origin! Does anyone recognise them, and can they provide details of the supplier?

I know that Ambis and Masokits both do some excellent and realistic tiebars, but they very much fail on the CBE test for someone that is trying to complete their first P4 turnout.

Cheers
Flymo

I think they look like the old Alan Gibson tiebars which the Mid-Sussex AG fitted to "Pulborough".

[Mike Waldron]

I know one of the Mid-Sussex group - Barry Luck - he's a member of the Brighton Circle as I am.
I can email him and check that
Mike

[doggeface]

I bought a couple of C&L tie bars recently as a try-out (still haven't) and they are very similar to the pic! I was going to make up some examples myself but the plastic/ABS/PVA etc tubing is not easily found on the internet.

Regards
Peter

[Mike Waldron]

Barry Luck confirms that they were Gibson tie bars on Pulborough. He also says that they were a bit flexible and he says that he manged to find some (very slightly larger) replacement PTFE tube which stayed straighter.

I have requested the supplier / source

Mike

[allanferguson]

I tried these tiebars from the Society shop at the time, and felt that they were the best expression of a functional tiebar available then or since, however they suffered from two shortcomings which I felt made them unsuitable for serious use.
The tiebar to rail joint had to be a soldered joint on the edge of the foot of the rail, which didn't give much strength.
And the rigid connection between the two switch rails set up bending stresses which didn't help the soldered joint, and also weakened the plastic tube, which despite its heatproof specification (teflon?) seemed to suffer from the soldering.
Blackstone Jn, which many admired at Scaleforum, has these tiebars, and I think suffers from these problems, though I would be interested to hear of any other long term experiences with them.
I gave up on the functional tiebar, and developed my own form of dropper wire to use with any TOU of the Studiolith style, or the excellent models described above. I couldn't get at a working example, so knocked this together to illustrate the point (sorry!)

Operating Wire 1.jpg

Operating wire 2.jpg

[Tim V]

I regard functional stretchers as a complete waste of time. The joint will fail, as other have pointed out. To get around this, I use the ideas from the Bodmin articles, of using dummy stretchers.
This picture was not taken for the purpose of illustrating my point, it is of a failed joint onto the functional below board TOU, but shows the dummy stretchers.

IMG_0376.JPG

Needs a bit more concealing with ballast - but I never view my models up this close.....

[allanferguson]

Looks like Caledonian Railway ballast to me!

Allan F

[Jan]

I gave up on the functional tiebar, and developed my own form of dropper wire to use with any TOU of the Studiolith style, or the excellent models described above. I couldn't get at a working example, so knocked this together to illustrate the point (sorry!)

Ah... good stuff. I'm on to something like this for Watkin's Wharf. It's the solder joint that's the problem I guess. Are you using 60/40? I was of a mind that there would need to be a rotational element in the anchor - which is why I was considering going for the soldered on the head of a rivet in the tiebar approach - but that gives little contact area, and hence more likelihood of breakage, so if you've had no issues with your solution, I may make like an electrical detective and follow your lead.

Cheers

Jan

[allanferguson]

[quote="I was of a mind that there would need to be a rotational element in the anchor - which is why I was considering going for the soldered on the head of a rivet in the tiebar approach.....
Jan[/quote]


I think the rotational bit is key, and I think the loose rivet in a moving sleeper can work; however many might feel it was not sightly, hence the dropper rotating in the TOU tube. I have used moving sleepers of PCB with brass pins through from the underside, shaped like the end of the droppers above, to give a good joint in the web of the rail. For me long term reliability is more important than detail appearance (but that's a personal viewpoint). I used Carr's solder, either 183 or 145, according to what was handy.

Allan F

[craig_whilding]

I but some Masokits functional tie bars on an Exactoscale A7 turnout I use on the workbench a few years ago now and they are still working and electrically isolated.

Here is a more scale version using Colin Craig brass connections to the rail soldered with a 295deg solder and the 0.3mm double sided copperclad soldered on with normall 188. The pictures show the arrangement with only the one stretcher in place. The turnout is at the club currently or i'd take another shot of both stretchers in situ. The flex in the copperclad is visible and having the two in place helps the switch rails move correctly. Its passed the Dick Petter test so hopefully i'll lay it in the new year after its painted. It'll be driven off the fronts of the switch rails John Hayes style (MRJ article..) probably rather than under this 1st stretcher.

Oh, I do need to solder on cosmetic track circuit insulation gaps to the bar though to match the track circuit gapped soleplate.

craigwelsh-stretcher_bar_test1.JPG

craigwelsh-stretcher_bar_test2.JPG

You could drive a turnout manually using this system off one end of the stretcher with a Z in the wire run. The switch should exert less pressure on the stretcher than a Tortoise etc might if driven this way. The latter may work if the fulcrum is tested and setup very carefully though.

Thankfully someone else is demoing track at S4 North now so I don't have to pretend to know a lot about this stuff .

[Paul Willis]

Have just read this rather late in the day - but quite interesting still.

Why not arrange a jig to make the bends and produce your own in .7mm brass wire?
The bends can easily be 'crimped' tighter with a good pair of pliers.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion. It's a bit of a non-starter, as the question was actually for someone that is finding their feet in P4, and that level of manufacturing of parts is currently beyond him.

If I was going to build more track for a layout for myself, I'd probably use one of the existing manufacturers' products like Masokits and link it to something like the TOUs described on my Beer & Buckjumpers thread.

Cheers
Flymo


Mike[/quote]

[wonkychops]

A general issue with the tube and wire style of tie bars is if the wire ends cut into the plastic tube weakening it.
It has one good point - it can help hold switch blades down if it runs under the stock rails.
An issue with through baseboard type stretchers is keeping the hole clear of debris and also hiding it.
There are at least two style of stretchers prior to recent privatised times. They come as a rod or tube or a flat (vertical) bar.
Both seem to be mounted lower than the bottom of the rail, so they are cranked downwards close to the switch blade.
An early version (used by the GWR?) had the stretcher rod running through holes in the stock rail.
Rods - particularly tubes such as gas pipes became known for sudden fracturing from internal corrosion and this may have contributed to their demise though they were still around during the later years of British Railways, albeit in sidings.
The bar type may have been introduced with track circuits as it is easier to insulate that type than the rod type - does anyone have a definitive answer when ?
However where bolt locks were fitted this could introduce a flat vertical bar beyond the end of the switch blade, even if the stretchers were rods.
Other than light railways where a bar could be attached to the foot of a flatbottom rail I am not aware rod type stretchers were ever used by BR on flatbottom track.

The design criteria for any stretcher (for models) should be is there enough flexibility between it and the switch blades as there is a small angular change between the two parts as switches are moved. Making things very solid (with thick stretchers and solder joints) puts a stress on everything including the operating mechanism and eventually the weakest link in the chain breaks.

Early protoype approaches knew this hence the "loose" connection made between rod stretchers and the switch blades. All a modeller has to do is reproduce that flexibility.

[rogereaton]

The early Mystery Tiebars mentioned in this Post were made by me for the Stores many years ago (Evans and Ickenham days). I called them TOU's, ie turnout operating units. They consisted of music wire (0.45mm)and teflon tubing (thin wall AWG28)to be used as in the chinese finger puzzle. My intent was to make something that would not bend easily and the connecting insulator would be both fexible and solder heat-proof.
The clear picture above shows one unit beautifically.
It is very satisfying to read about this wire and teflon model component after so many years (1980's?). I am still using some of them in my layout including double slips. They were sold in small plastic bags enclosed five units plus five extra teflon tubes with instructions. I must have hundreds myself and I hired others at 10cents a piece. C&L took over using brass wire when I quit.
The reason for my late response is that I had not entered this forum until today due to many previous computer type frustrations.
In any event, the current Stores may still have my desciptive instructions of one page and I will arrange to pass a few feet of teflon to Jeremy if there is a good responce to this story.
By the way, there is a much better and more to scale TOU, called a Turnout Connection Kit which is available in the Stores as a result of a Competition in 1983 known as the Brook Smith Award; Scale Parts for Model Railways(SPMR) in the Stores catalogue.

[Bulwell Hall]

Alternative Tie Bars/Stretchers

See the upcoming MRJ 216 for an article on functional Tie Bars/Stretchers using Masokits components.

Gerry