When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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John Donnelly
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When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:55 pm


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Julian Roberts
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:31 pm

Reminds me of my efforts turning a barge at a winding hole

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jon price
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby jon price » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:40 am

And if you go round backwards you summon a demon...
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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kelly
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby kelly » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:00 am

Probably be some industrial railways that used something similar I'm sure.
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allanferguson
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby allanferguson » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:10 am

I seem to recall that Comrie, in Perthshire, had something similar at one time

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John Bateson
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby John Bateson » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:54 am

That Italian Job puts the Barkston triangle to shame! Impressed I am but it will still not fit in my shed.
And I have more than enough demons down there as it is. :mrgreen:
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:24 pm

There was once a similar although not quite so complex arrangement at Grantham.
Triangle.jpeg

Although the track had been lifted the track bed is clearly visible.
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Will L
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Will L » Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:09 pm

John Donnelly wrote:The Italians do this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1672374 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The wiring for that would be fun.

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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby essdee » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:23 pm

Comrie?

Comrie triangle.png


There you are Allan - well spotted! Courtesy NLS map library. Pure coincidence, as last night I was 'at Callander' on NLS, not far over the hills. As one does, when following up a mystery SDJR tariff for 1890s Radstock to Callander 'Patent Fuel' traffic......

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Julian Roberts
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:30 pm

Wow that would make a great layout to fit in a corner! 18' by 9' fits the whole thing :)
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby essdee » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:15 pm

Yes indeed ! Almost a shame it's not the extra reversal though........ now where's Mr. Harrap?!

I should say that is the original station, which became a goods yard when the line was extended westwards to St.Fillans and Lochearnhead.

Steve

(No further on with the Patent Fuel traffic; there was a gasworks later, possible?)

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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby allanferguson » Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:51 am

It would have been educative to see a black 5 (more or less the standard motive power in later years) negotiate that trackwork

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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby essdee » Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:43 am

Probably best with ear protection?!

Now, would you prefer to approach the river stub smokebox first, or tender first - on a crisp winter's morning like today...... no, 'neither' is not an option?

Steve

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Julian Roberts
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:45 am

Fraid I've yielded to Templot addiction and as far as I can see the relevant turnouts are really small. Even then I'm not putting the tiebar where the map puts it. If the purpose was to turn locos they must have been very little ones??

For some reason I can't attach the Shape file. The map URL is

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=1 ... rs=168&b=1

then I put it 2000mm from the grid origin, x and y
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Daddyman » Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:41 pm

Julian Roberts wrote: If the purpose was to turn locos they must have been very little ones??


It was and they were - positively piddly: the first train was hauled by a Conner 2-4-0, but it was 8 carriages long, so almost certainly not the length of a normal service train, so even smaller locos might have been used - if the Caley had any.

From John Young, Branch Lines of Upper Strath Earn (Lightmoor), caption to the map seen above: "This shows the original terminus layout for the Crieff and Comrie Railway, including the triangle for turning locomotives, which obviated the need for a turntable."

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Julian Roberts
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:36 pm

Thanks David - yes I've easily found a pic showing just what you mean. Perth and Kinross Archive.
Comrie early loco.PNG

I'm very sad to say I've spent more precious time on Templot and found the curves are pretty reasonable, certainly for P4 models. A civil engineering friend is quite sceptical as to the exact accuracy of these old maps; I imagine these curves are likely to be more accurate than the turnouts.

Comrie north curve.PNG

Comrie east curve.PNG

Comrie west curve.PNG

Comrie west point.PNG



I've now remembered to try changing the switch and V crossing settings on the tightest turnout which makes it easier for radius, so that would apply to them all. The tandem is a mess, but I'm leaving it at that. By the time of Black 5s, Allan F, I doubt this triangle was used? The most recent map before the line closed shows nothing left of it.

Comrie was tightest turnout.PNG


And mentioning demons....
Screenshot_20221209-173933_Samsung Internet.jpg
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Last edited by Julian Roberts on Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby bécasse » Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:40 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:A civil engineering friend is quite sceptical as to the exact accuracy of these old maps; I imagine these curves are likely to be more accurate than the turnouts.


When I was writing the article on the construction, half-a-century ago, of Bembridge for Scalefour News, I tried overlaying the plan of the layout on 25" OS maps (then, but no longer, available on the Old Maps website). Much to my surprise, all of the several editions of the OS map available portrayed the curve through the platform as sharper than it was on the model. The station area of the model was a very accurate representation of what was shown on a Southern Railway 40 foot to the inch plan, and we knew that that was accurate because the track-less station still existed when we started construction and we carefully measured the precise width of the straight-rear, curved-front platform at regular intervals along its length to double check. Therefore the OS maps had to be wrong in this respect, a surveying error for the first edition carried forward into subsequent editions, even though other changes were incorporated.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:32 am

Very interesting David. The question to me would be how to get hold of the railway's plans. But anyway I'm beyond that stage now with Kyle which is drawn as accurately as I can on the OS map, taking that literally. And of course it makes no difference when actually laying track on the template whether there are slight variations in radius. The conversation arose with this chap when I tried drawing Callander station (his intended retirement project) on Templot with its small variations of radius - he thought this effort to be literal was very amusingly wasteful of time and very unlikely to have been what was actually built, that the radius would have been consistent throughout the station.
Callander Templot plan.PNG

I've added the box file of what I did on Comrie to the previous post. I found the curves were quite easy to overlay on the map using the transition function.
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:13 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:There was once a similar although not quite so complex arrangement at Grantham.
Triangle.jpeg
Although the track had been lifted the track bed is clearly visible.
Regards
Tony.

The 'Tracks through Grantham' website has everything you ever wanted to know about turning locos at Grantham
https://www.tracksthroughgrantham.uk/bu ... triangles/
The points on it were sprung, so presumably it was quick to use.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: When you can’t afford a turntable and don’t have the space for a triangle…

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:17 pm

bécasse wrote:Much to my surprise, all of the several editions of the OS map available portrayed the curve through the platform as sharper than it was on the model. The station area of the model was a very accurate representation of what was shown on a Southern Railway 40 foot to the inch plan, and we knew that that was accurate because the track-less station still existed when we started construction and we carefully measured the precise width of the straight-rear, curved-front platform at regular intervals along its length to double check. Therefore the OS maps had to be wrong in this respect

Hi,

Not necessarily. It could be down to the map projection used for the old County Series OS maps. When resampled to match geo-referenced internet maps, straight lines can become curved and vice versa. Find a nice straight railway platform well west and north of Greenwich. Look at it on an OS paper map, and then again on the geo-referenced version available on Bing maps.

Go far enough west and north, and notice that on Bing maps the OS grid lines are curved, cross the screen at an angle, and the squares are no longer square. You can imagine what that does to a straight railway line:

https://www.bing.com/maps/?cp=56.820682 ... .0&style=s

Detailed OS information:

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/docume ... ritain.pdf

p.s. Templot makes no allowance for the curvature of the Earth. It is referenced to the rail top, just like the SR 40ft plan.

Martin.
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