Edwardian/ turn of century track

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
Stephan.wintner
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Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Stephan.wintner » Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:58 pm

Folks, i may have overlooked it, but as a relative newcomer I'm having a hard time finding the answer.

Can anyone give a brief overview, or links, covering modelling Edwardian/ turn of the century era track, especially on secondary or branch lines? I'm sure it's been discussed, just not sure where. Any MRJ or SNews articles?


I'm assuming chairs and bullhead rail, but that's really a guess, and i imagine many of the products and posts I see are aimed at later eras, post grouping or BR era? For example, sleeper spacing would have tightened and rail weights would have become heavier as time passed, no? (I'm sure different firms had different practices, too.)

Cheers
Stephan

Phil O
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Phil O » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:16 pm

Hi Stephan,

Welcombe to the forum.

Virtually every pre-grouping company had their own way of doing things, so there is no definitive answer to your question. If you could give us some idea as to which company you're looking at, someone may be able to point you in the right direction. Secondary lines tended to use cascaded mainline track, even now!

For the Great Western, there's the Great Western Switch and Crossing Practice, by David Smith.

Cheers

Phil

40C
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby 40C » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:24 pm

This site is possibly worth a look?

https://www.oldpway.info/

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Paul Willis
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:58 pm

The first things that I thought of when I saw this question was Modern British Permanent Way.

Despite the title, it only goes to prove that like "modern image" locomotives, all things are new and trendy at the time :-)

This is the preface:

Modern British Permanent Way - Preface.JPG


Modern when it was published in 1915...

The book itself has a comprehensive index, but not a contents page, so from my laptop, these are the chapters by way of Contents:

Modern British Permanent Way - Contents.JPG


I have an entire copy of this on my laptop. If you want one, get over to the GER Society website. It will cost you the grand total of £1.50, and as with almost all their publications, it's available to non-members.

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/re042-modern-british-permanent-way-1915

Cheers
Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:04 pm

Oh and as a specific example of pre-Grouping practice from the mid-1880s (and thus would easily still be in place on secodary lines at the turn of the 20th century) I found this from somewhere.

GER plain track.png


I'd love to give source/credit for it, but the reference doesn't enlighten me, and I can't recollect where I found it.

Staggered joints would be a talking point if you put them on a layout...

Best,
Paul
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petermeyer
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby petermeyer » Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:09 am

I set my track to LNWR practices. Jol Wilkinson kindly provided me with a jig for straight track. However, I also set the track to LNWR spacings in Templot with the help of Martin Wynne when designing the layout. The LNWR Society has a document on permanent way which I followed for the turnouts.

Years ago I produced for myself a jig for track set to GWR practice.

Just a reminder that in pre-grouping days prior to WW1, sleepers were 9 feet rather that the 8'6" later.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:18 am

It is worth pointing out that the Society digest sheets as supplied to all new members and also available in the members' section of the web site - see
https://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/#23 contains temlates for plain track for several of the per-Grouping companies - see sheets 23.5.5.2 up to 23.5.5.7

Terry Bendall

Carlos
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Carlos » Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:13 pm

Paul Willis wrote:Oh and as a specific example of pre-Grouping practice from the mid-1880s (and thus would easily still be in place on secodary lines at the turn of the 20th century) I found this from somewhere.

GER plain track.png

I'd love to give source/credit for it, but the reference doesn't enlighten me, and I can't recollect where I found it.

Staggered joints would be a talking point if you put them on a layout...

Best,
Paul


It is GERS Journal 17.

Cheers,
Carlos

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Paul Willis
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:57 am

Thanks Carlos!

I’ve been trying to find a better referencing system for drawings and photos and failing miserably. Must try harder (again).

Hope that you and the boys are well, and perhaps see you soon.

Cheers
Paul
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Tim V
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Tim V » Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:34 am

There were some lines laid in flat bottom. Depends on your area.

Problem is finding a suitable rail section.

Same problem also applies to bullhead, only one section is available which is too heavy for Edwardian track.
Tim V
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Carlos
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Carlos » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:39 pm

Paul Willis wrote:Thanks Carlos!

I’ve been trying to find a better referencing system for drawings and photos and failing miserably. Must try harder (again).

Hope that you and the boys are well, and perhaps see you soon.

Cheers
Paul

We are well, thanks. I hope to meet you at Scaleforum later this month, it is always one of the pleasures of it!

Carlos

Stephan.wintner
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Stephan.wintner » Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:24 pm

Thanks to all.

Any further thoughts on suitable model chairs? If the bullhead rails available are a bit heavy, then presumably the available chairs are too?

Stephan

bécasse
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby bécasse » Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:14 pm

Stephan.wintner wrote:
Any further thoughts on suitable model chairs? If the bullhead rails available are a bit heavy, then presumably the available chairs are too?


Most pregrouping companies had their own design of chairs, often very distinctive and quite different from the chairs used for newly-laid main-line track in latter years. Some of these chairs, at least for plain track, are commercially available but most aren't. It is really a case of looking at contemporary photos showing the track of your chosen company and comparing what you can see with the various model chairs that are available commercially, getting the number of bolt/spike/trenail holes right is a significant starting point but it does go further than that, some companies' chairs had a very distinctive "spine' on the outer side, for example.

Pointwork is another minefield as quite a few companies (for example the LNWR) used interspaced plain track sleepering to minimise the number of longer and wider (and disproportionately more expensive) sleepers required.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:29 pm

Attached is a scanned copy of a LNWR Permanent Way Department 1908 drawing which may be of interest.

LNWR track drawings.pdf
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Winander
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Winander » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:53 pm

The positive note is that you have chosen to model the correct gauge and that will make your all track look better. I propose to model the 19thC and I do not know of any rail that will be light enough to represent the prototype. The EM Gauge Society bulk buys with us, so their's is the exact same thing. Chairs are another problem. On a positive note ballast was much deeper than later years and you can argue that your branch was as originally laid. I have seen photographs of LNWR and Midland 19thC track with ballast up to the underside of the rail, so sins will be largely hidden. A caveat is that all photographs were taken in stations at a time when apparently travellers and staff wandering about the trackwork was fairly common, e.g. using a barrow crossing, so that ballast may have been like that for a reason. So the remainder of the permanent way may have been ballasted differently. I am still going to model a very early main line with ballast over the sleepers.

If you tell us which company you are modelling, it may elicit specific advice.
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:31 pm

Stephan.wintner wrote:Any further thoughts on suitable model chairs? If the bullhead rails available are a bit heavy, then presumably the available chairs are too?

Hi Stephan,

A possible way forward would be to use the Templot plug track chairs, with the output scaling set to maybe 85%. It would be possible to adjust the rail-fit to accept code75 bullhead rail, even in undersize chairs.

So far for plain track I have done only the 1925 REA/SRC S1 and S1J ordinary chairs, but scaled down they might look the part for earlier pre-grouping track.

Image

Image

More info at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?f ... -track.34/

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?t ... track.529/

Note that Templot is free, the exported 3D files are free. But you do need a resin printer or access to one. No CAD program or CAD design skills are needed, the exported files are ready to use on the printer. The resin printer which I used for the chairs is this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08FR2Y1PT/

Once you have the printer, the material cost of making chairs is very low -- under £1 for 500 chairs.

No gauges needed, no adhesive needed -- the chairs are a press fit (or a light tap) in the timbering base, using a suitable wooden implement on the rail top. Or you can set a looser fit for gluing in place if preferred.

They can be printed without the plug part if preferred, but then need rubbing on abrasive paper to ensure a flat base. Or printed with a shorter plug for use in laser-cut timbers.

Plain track to any gauge or scale or sleeper spacing can be done now, with or without wider joint sleepers and joint chairs. Also L1 bridge chairs on waybeams (baulk timbers) for bridges, ash-pits, etc. But I am still working on the pointwork. Plug track is still very experimental.

If you have a CNC miller/engraver, there is also the option of doing this:

Image

The miller which I used for that was this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mostics-Upgrad ... 0956TJFH5/

I showed some samples of plug track at the recent MOD22 open day in Ludlow, which were well received with much interest.

cheers,

Martin.
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andrewnummelin
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby andrewnummelin » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:34 pm

I've been following this thread with interest as, over the winter, I'm hoping to start a layout set in this period.
I've obtained and read a copy of "Modern British Permanent Way" as suggested by Paul Willis but this has not helped with my questions. There seems to be quite a bit published about the practices of several major companies, some or all of which could have produced some or all of their own requirements but I've not come across details of what would probably have been supplied to minor companies that would have bought components from specialist suppliers. Unfortunately in my case I've not found photos that are sufficiently clear to answer the following questions:
- what would have been typical rail length for track newly laid around 1906? (30 feet ?)
- how many sleepers per length for a heavily used mineral line?
- how many bolts/spikes would a running rail chair have had? (3 or 4?)
- replaced main line flat bottom rail, originally from the late 1880s, would probably have been reused in sidings. Would 30' be a good guess at typical rail length? Would the rail have been on baseplates or just spiked to sleepers in sidings?

My best guess is that the answers will be along the lines of "as long as a piece of string" but I'd rather find out now if possible than take the low risk of being proven wrong after the track has been made!
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

Philip Hall
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:51 pm

I have a couple of LSWR chairs in my garden - one 1905 vintage for 45lb rail (base measures 39cm x 18.5cm) and the other 1914 for 90lb (38.5cm x 18.5cm). The jaws do look ever so slightly different but when scaled down I think you’d be hard pressed to notice a difference.

Philip

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:53 pm

Given 45lb rail would be half the cross section area compared to 90 the difference should be very obvious, maybe that 45 should read 85?
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Martin Wynne » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:06 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:maybe that 45 should read 85?

If the chair is marked 45lb it will most likely be the weight of the chair.

A standard chair for 85lb/yd rail (S2 chair) weighs 40lb. S1 chair for 95lb/yd rail weighs 47lb.

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Philip Hall
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:43 pm

Here are pictures of the chairs. One is indeed marked '48' near to the jaw, but they clearly say 45lb or 90lb. Apart from differences in the jaws, different manufacturers and different dates, they are almost identical. The upper date is 1914 but is a little obscured in the photo. Maybe I put too much Hammerite on!

Philip

IMG_2691.jpg
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Tim V
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Tim V » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:48 pm

andrewnummelin wrote:I've been following this thread with interest as, over the winter, I'm hoping to start a layout set in this period.
I've obtained and read a copy of "Modern British Permanent Way" as suggested by Paul Willis but this has not helped with my questions. There seems to be quite a bit published about the practices of several major companies, some or all of which could have produced some or all of their own requirements but I've not come across details of what would probably have been supplied to minor companies that would have bought components from specialist suppliers. Unfortunately in my case I've not found photos that are sufficiently clear to answer the following questions:
- what would have been typical rail length for track newly laid around 1906? (30 feet ?)
- how many sleepers per length for a heavily used mineral line?
- how many bolts/spikes would a running rail chair have had? (3 or 4?)
- replaced main line flat bottom rail, originally from the late 1880s, would probably have been reused in sidings. Would 30' be a good guess at typical rail length? Would the rail have been on baseplates or just spiked to sleepers in sidings?

My best guess is that the answers will be along the lines of "as long as a piece of string" but I'd rather find out now if possible than take the low risk of being proven wrong after the track has been made!

Easy answer is look in the sidings - downgraded main line track there. I've seen inside keyed track and 32' rails for example there.
Tim V
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Noel
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Noel » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:30 pm

Andrew, I assume your interest is still the PC&N, which opened in 1884 and had a passenger service from 1887. The thought occurs that, for a railway built that late, the BoT must have done a report before that passenger service started, which may well now be publicly accessible, assuming you can find out who has it, and one of the aspects the inspector would have commented on is the construction of the original permanent way...
Regards
Noel

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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:18 am

One of the most comprehensive sources of information about track is "The Railway - Bristish track since 1804" written by Andrew Dow and published by Pen and Sword Books. ISBN is 978 1 47382 257 3. Very expensive when it was first published in 2014 but a quick search on the web shows copies available at around £15.00.

A very useful source of information which will proably contain what Andrew and others have asked about.

Terry Bendall

andrewnummelin
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Re: Edwardian/ turn of century track

Postby andrewnummelin » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:45 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:One of the most comprehensive sources of information about track is "The Railway - Bristish track since 1804" written by Andrew Dow and published by Pen and Sword Books. ISBN is 978 1 47382 257 3. Very expensive when it was first published in 2014 but a quick search on the web shows copies available at around £15.00.

A very useful source of information which will proably contain what Andrew and others have asked about.

Terry Bendall

Indeed a good read but it doesn’t answer the sort of questions an odd ball like me has!
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin


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