common crossing vee angles

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
ben mason
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common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:51 pm

Excuse my ignorance, so far I have only built hand made B6 turnouts which I have been reliably informed have a crossing vee angle of 1:7.
I am now looking to build B8 and B7 turnouts and I can't find the crossing vee angles written anywhere. It would be appreciated if someone
could reply with this information.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:07 pm

Someone has been confusing you, that reliable information was wrong. :)
The 6 in B6 stands for a crossing angle of 1:6.
Similarly B7 and B8 have crossing angles of 1:7 and 1:8 respectively.
And so on.....
The B indicates the design of the switch blades which run from A as the shortest up to G and beyond.

It would probably help if you used Templot which will show you all the details.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Paul Willis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:26 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:It would probably help if you used Templot which will show you all the details.


As Keith said, Templot is a good place to design prototype-looking track.

If you just want to print simple turnouts, this is a great place to start: http://templot.com/companion/gs_firstoff.php. Even in its simplest form, it will allow you to mess about with geometry on the screen and get what works for you.

You do have to download and install the Templot program itself first. http://templot.com/companion/installation.php

And PLEASE read the instructions first!

Cheers
Paul
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Enigma
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Enigma » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:33 pm

All this basic info on angles and switch lengths should be readily available within the Digest shouldn't it? Well worth seeking it out on the website and 'digesting' it.

ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:52 pm

Thanks for the information, I have accessed Templot but as a Mac user I have only 2 weeks free use with CrossOver. After that I’ll need a Windows computer if I want to continue. I’m not sure what would be the least expensive way to do that but I’m tempted.
I have heard it’s possible to get a whole track plan printed on a roll but I haven’t found the link for that yet.

Crepello
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Crepello » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:20 am

ben mason wrote:Thanks for the information, I have accessed Templot but as a Mac user I have only 2 weeks free use with CrossOver.

You need to check out Wine. Or if you have a Windows licence, VitualBox

Philip Hall
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:58 am

You don't need Templot to start with, very good though it is. The Society offers free downloads of all sorts of point and crossing templates which are more than adequate to build track on. Indeed, that's the way a lot of us still do it.

Philip

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Paul Willis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:18 am

Philip Hall wrote:You don't need Templot to start with, very good though it is. The Society offers free downloads of all sorts of point and crossing templates which are more than adequate to build track on. Indeed, that's the way a lot of us still do it.

Philip


Phillip is absolutely correct that the Society has free downloads of the turnout templates as one of the benefits of membership - you'll find them here: https://www.scalefour.org/members/tracktemplates/

Just be aware that, as the introductory text and a thread on this Forum shows, there is a slight scaling error with the downloads. That's why I initially suggested Templot. Not least as it automatically asks you to calibrate your printer to ensure the printouts are accurate.

It's been many years since I owned a Mac (1990...) so I've never used a Windows emulator. However, there are many people who have quite successfully, and Templot works well for them.

Cheers
Paul
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Terry Bendall
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:31 am

Enigma wrote:All this basic info on angles and switch lengths should be readily available within the Digest shouldn't it?


It is. See https://www.scalefour.org/members/digests/#23 and other related digest sheets.

Philip Hall wrote:You don't need Templot to start with, very good though it is


Totally agree. Standard turnouts will apply to many situations and if something special is needed, paper templates can be cut and modified. All the directions to do this can be found in the relevant digest sheets. Sometimes old fashioned technology can be useful and easier. :D

Terry Bendall

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Steve Taylor
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Steve Taylor » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:03 am

Ben, you can run your Mac with a partition to allow a dual boot into either OSx or Windows. I run a small partition of the HD for windows in order to run Templot on a 2015 MacBook Pro. It will appear to run the fans a lot, some of the bios functions may not be so fine tuned, since there is not a heating issue, but its fine for hobbyist levels of use.

ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:04 am

2020-11-09_232147.jpg

Here's my track plan for the goods yard end of Cliffe station(SER). I agree that most of this could be B7 templates
from the society archive, except the long siding which looks to be a semi curved B8- I'm using templot for the
template for this only so maybe the 2 week free trial will be enough. Thanks for the comments, at 55 I might still be
young round here but already turning old school!

bécasse
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby bécasse » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:58 pm

Steve Taylor wrote:Ben, you can run your Mac with a partition to allow a dual boot into either OSx or Windows. I run a small partition of the HD for windows in order to run Templot on a 2015 MacBook Pro. It will appear to run the fans a lot, some of the bios functions may not be so fine tuned, since there is not a heating issue, but its fine for hobbyist levels of use.


Apple are about to change from using Intel processors in Macs to the same family that are used in iPads and iPhones. These new Macs won't allow partitioning in the same way so Templot will be a no, no. I personally don't like using Windows (or other Microsoft products) anyway and I get by perfectly well without using Templot, drawing up PW from first principles in Inkscape - which itself will now run as a proper Appli on Macs rather than having to use a Linux emulator.

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Paul Willis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:52 pm

Hi Ben,

If you do decide to learn Templot, you can have a bit of fun. Are you aware of the ability to import maps from the NLS website into Templot?

I'm no expert at Templot - although Gordon Ashton who is sometimes on here gave me a huge amount of confidence earlier in the year - so this is a very rough attempt.

Cliffe is a very straightforward trackplan, and this took me about 45 minutes to do, which included a certain amount of remembering where various functions are in the menus...

Cliffe templot.JPG


If you'd like to have a play with it yourself, attached is the track (BOX) file. I'm afraid that it looks like I can't save the background (BGS) file here as it's an invalid file type. I'm happy to email it to you though.

Save the two files into the respective "BOX-FILES" and "SHAPE-FILES" folders in the Templot folder on your C: drive and you should be able to open them. DON'T try and save them anywhere else, or it will all end in tears, and MartinW will tell me off...

And have fun playing. Always remember that this is just software. It's *really* difficult to break something and do permanent damage ;-)

Cheers
Paul
Attachments
Cliffe SER.box
(132.42 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
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ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:21 pm

Thank you Paul, I now have the track components in my Templot box file. If I can assemble them on your background, is it possible to send the whole plan somewhere to be printed on a roll (I have heard rumours of this)?

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Paul Willis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:28 am

ben mason wrote:Thank you Paul, I now have the track components in my Templot box file. If I can assemble them on your background, is it possible to send the whole plan somewhere to be printed on a roll (I have heard rumours of this)?


Hi Ben,

I've never done this - I use my trusty A4 laser printer and a lot of sellotape:

Canonsgate trackplan - full size (2).JPG


However, I have heard of it being done. What you need to do is find a local print bureau (or work at a place with an industrial sized printer or plotter) which will take files in an appropriate format.

Have a look in the "Output" menu of Templot and you'll see a lot of choices of format to export a file in. You just need to match one of these to what a printer will use. I'd point you at a thread on the Templot Forum - I'm certain there are ones there about printing, but unfortunately it's temporarily down.

Have fun!
Paul
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andrewnummelin
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby andrewnummelin » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:30 am

Flymo748 wrote:
ben mason wrote:Thank you Paul, I now have the track components in my Templot box file. If I can assemble them on your background, is it possible to send the whole plan somewhere to be printed on a roll (I have heard rumours of this)?


Hi Ben,

I've never done this - I use my trusty A4 laser printer and a lot of sellotape:...
Paul


Just a word of warning if you try this - it's very easy to make small alignment errors at each join. It's better to mark out a baseboard with interval marks on a grid (eg every 20 or 30 cm) measured carefully from a single datum point and then place each A4 sheet independently. You may guess at how I learnt this!
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:28 pm

I have successfully printed the track components so sellotape will be the next job. Fortunately my track plan is a lot more simple than the one shown above!

bevis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby bevis » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:09 pm

It might be worth having a look at Tony Wilkins' thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5727 as he deals with templot a lot.

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Paul Willis
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:48 pm

ben mason wrote:I have successfully printed the track components so sellotape will be the next job. Fortunately my track plan is a lot more simple than the one shown above!


If you have the printouts, you'll see that they have alignment marks printed on them, and they overlap slightly.

The way that I find works best is if you consistently (and accurately!) trim of the overlap on two adjacent sides - say top and left, or bottom and right.

Then you can see exactly where one sheet ends and another one begins when one is placed on top of the other.

I'm sure there are better ways...

Cheers
Paul
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Martin Wynne
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Martin Wynne » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:39 am

ben mason wrote:Thanks for the information, I have accessed Templot but as a Mac user I have only 2 weeks free use with CrossOver. After that I’ll need a Windows computer if I want to continue. I’m not sure what would be the least expensive way to do that but I’m tempted.
I have heard it’s possible to get a whole track plan printed on a roll but I haven’t found the link for that yet.

Hi Ben,

Much cheaper than buying a Windows computer would be to buy CrossOver when the free trial period ends. Codeweavers often have special offers, but currently it costs £32 (you don't need the support package, Codeweavers know nothing about Templot, ask on Templot Club if you have problems):

https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover

To print a track plan on a roll you need to export it from Templot as a PDF file (easy), put the file on a USB stick, and take it to your local high street copyshop. Or send the file to an online printing service.

Go to output > export a file... menu item. Set a suitable size for a single large PDF page, say 3100mm x 700mm like this:

Image

Click the create PDF... button.

The actual PDF document will be a little larger than that to allow for the margins. The print shop will know what to do. But make sure you tell them to set "No Scaling" or 100% size when printing it.

If you want a cheaper black & white print, the print shop can convert your colour PDF when printing it. Alternatively you may get a better result by selecting the grey shades option on the above dialog for the PDF.

More info about that and all of Templot if you ask on the Templot Club forum:

https://85a.co.uk/forum/

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:57 pm

Thanks Martin,
I now have the track plan in one page loaded on a memory stick.
Now to search for a big enough printer!
Cheers from Ben

Chris Mitton
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Chris Mitton » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 pm

ben mason wrote:I now have the track plan in one page loaded on a memory stick.
Now to search for a big enough printer!
Cheers from Ben

Hi Ben
When you've found your printer (probably at your friendly neighbourhood print agency, lockdown permitting :( ), don't forget to ask them to print you two copies. That means that when you've buried your plan under sleepers and ballast, you'll still have one to design and mark out where to put wiring runs, track sectioning, expansion joints, point rodding runs, signals, scenery, and all the other stuff on your ToDo list....and you can show it off at your local Area Group!
Incidentally, I would echo Andrew's comments about alignment accuracy when using multiple pages - but when I got my entire Templot plan (about six metres long) printed on a roll some years ago, following Martin's excellent instructions, and plonked it on the baseboards, the combined errors in that length amounted to about two-thirds of a millimetre, which I thought pretty impressive.
Regards
Chris

ben mason
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby ben mason » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:14 pm

Thanks. I now have the track plan printed in one piece, at least all the point work at the goods yard end fits onto a roll 3200mm long, this was the maximum I could get for £36 which I would call a good price(Prontaprint quoted well over £100!).
Woodwork may now begin, so I have further concerns to raise; I have always used cork sheet underlay, but I wonder if that’s necessary considering I will be working straight onto the paper template. Once the track is finished the paper will be concealed under paint and ballast I guess.

Chris Mitton
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby Chris Mitton » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:44 am

ben mason wrote:I have always used cork sheet underlay, but I wonder if that’s necessary considering I will be working straight onto the paper template. Once the track is finished the paper will be concealed under paint and ballast I guess.

Hi Ben

None of the reasons for using cork underlay have gone away so carry on with it - but why not put the paper template on top of the cork? The one snag I've come across with that is that you need a flexible adhesive to stick the template down - and latex-based glues play havoc with drills!

Regards
Chris

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steve howe
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Re: common crossing vee angles

Postby steve howe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:59 am

Re-positionable spray adhesive might be OK for sticking paper to cork. I have always used Evo-Stik Timebond to stick the cork itself down, it also allows you a bit of leeway for minor adjustments.

Doesn't Iain RIce advocate building track on paper complete with ballast and sticking it down?

Steve


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