Turnout construction - Question here please.

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
Julian Roberts
Posts: 680
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:20 pm

Thanks Tony. Yes Martin and Keith answered nearly all my questioning on that.
Just regarding the actuation of the switchblades, I ask only in case any of us think that as the blade ends are thinner than is sometimes the case perhaps, will a solder connection to the TOU very near the tip as is normal actually move the whole length of the switch, the full length of the planing, as it needs to be firmly against the stock rail all the way to the stockgauge....?

By the way I wasn't meaning to ask what kind of under baseboard actuation you use.

shawg
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:04 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby shawg » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:19 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:Given this is an Exactoscale product that even Len assumed non-existent, who would you expect to sue for breach of copyright?
A quick word with 2 or 3 people should easily clear it.
However, it's so simple to make a jig with two bits of stripwood, eg sleepers, whenever needed, that it was probably a very poor seller and would likely stay that way. Some things are useful, others a waste of effort.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html Very first picture!
Regards

That is the way I used to do it but with strips of artist mounting card stuck on a block of chipboard.
That little etch is just so much more convenient to have in ones tool box. It just seems a shame that the artwork is there and is not being used. I for one would like to have a second one as a spare.
The other question of course is just how many crossing vees is the average modeller likely to want to make in his lifetime anyway?
Regards
Tony.
hi
Is there any reason for not using the filing jig as an assembly aid
regards
geoff

PhilipT
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby PhilipT » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:06 pm

When I use my filing jig for soldering I find that the two rails don't quite line up in the vertical plane (presumably the grooves are very slightly out and this is magnified by the rails hanging off the end of the jig) - I then have to apply a slight twisting downward pressure on the jig against a piece of Formica laminate whilst I apply the iron. I don't always get it right and have to re-solder with a different twist(!). Things line up far better with both rails out of the jig and on a flat surface.

Phil

shawg
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:04 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby shawg » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:29 pm

I may have been lucky with mine no problems just that's what I thought the centre slot and clamp were for

geoff

PhilipT
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby PhilipT » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:32 pm

You're right - it's just that mine doesn't work.

Tony Wilkins
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:20 pm

Hi Geoff.
The centre slot is indeed intended to hold one of the rails for soldering. That is what the instructions I received with my filing jig showed. Like Philip, I was not convinced by the alignment of the point and splice rail when held so far back from the intended solder join. The flatter the angle, the worse this becomes. They will only be correctly aligned when just touching with zero side force, assuming there is no vertical or twist errors. Not something the Vee assembly jig that I use always totally eliminates either come to that, but it does hold the two rails firmly in contact and in the correct relationship to each other whilst soldering.
Regards
Tony.

MikeH
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby MikeH » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:56 am

I have been trying my hand at making vee's. The one in the pictures is about my 5th attempt, I think I am getting there but just wondering if it looks ok? Do you guys solder it together from the top or bottom of the rails?

Cheers
Attachments
vee top.jpg
vee top side.jpg
vee side.jpg

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3071
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:21 am

I always put my vees head down in the jig, hence solder from the bottom.
See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html
Yours looks perfectly satisfactory, good for the 5th one.
Regards

MikeH
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby MikeH » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:22 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:I always put my vees head down in the jig, hence solder from the bottom.
See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html
Yours looks perfectly satisfactory, good for the 5th one.
Regards


Thanks Keith,

I will knock up another one and solder it from the bottom.

Cheers

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby steve howe » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:06 pm

Brian Harrap has a nifty way of making crossing vees using a vice and big file.... :shock: described in his own inimitable way here:


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page-2?hl=harrap#entry439446

I've tried it and it works a treat!


Steve

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Martin Wynne » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:21 pm

steve howe wrote:Brian Harrap has a nifty way of making crossing vees using a vice and big file.... :shock: described in his own inimitable way here:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page-2?hl=harrap#entry439446
I've tried it and it works a treat!
Steve

I agree with Brian that vees are much easier to file after assembling them. See: viewtopic.php?p=59078#p59078

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

MikeH
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby MikeH » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:15 pm

Thanks, I will try that way too :)

Enigma
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Enigma » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:32 pm

steve howe wrote:Brian Harrap has a nifty way of making crossing vees using a vice and big file.... :shock: described in his own inimitable way here:


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page-2?hl=harrap#entry439446

I've tried it and it works a treat!


Steve

I'm sure I remember Alex Bowie describing this method of Vee making in the Model Railway Constructor around 1960'ish. TBH, I've always thought it should be relatively easy to do but I've shied away from it because it doesn't seem to fit in with the basic P4 philosphy of getting it all right. :)

Tony Wilkins
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:12 pm

MikeH wrote:I have been trying my hand at making vee's. Do you guys solder it together from the top or bottom of the rails?

Cheers


Hi Mike.
I have always soldered my Crossing Vee rails together with them held in position in the assembly jig with the rails head uppermost so I can see that they are a good fit. The join surfaces are fluxed first, then I place the tinned iron on the top surface of the rails, but the solder, which is a fine 0.7mm diameter multicored wire, is fed into the webs in between the two rails and follows the heat toward the crossing nose by capillary action.
If there is more than one of doing something............
Regards
Tony.

MikeH
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby MikeH » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:08 am

Tony Wilkins wrote:
MikeH wrote:I have been trying my hand at making vee's. Do you guys solder it together from the top or bottom of the rails?

Cheers


Hi Mike.
I have always soldered my Crossing Vee rails together with them held in position in the assembly jig with the rails head uppermost so I can see that they are a good fit. The join surfaces are fluxed first, then I place the tinned iron on the top surface of the rails, but the solder, which is a fine 0.7mm diameter multicored wire, is fed into the webs in between the two rails and follows the heat toward the crossing nose by capillary action.
If there is more than one of doing something............
Regards
Tony.


Thanks Tony,

That's what I did with the one above but ended up with alot of solder on the top of the rails, I guess I just used too much. I shall keep practicing..

Cheers
Michael

Philip Hall
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:24 am

I prefer Brian’s method of vee construction simply because it’s quicker and easier. It doesn’t bother me that it’s not ‘quite right’ because it’s almost impossible to tell that when it’s in place on the turnout!

Philip

User avatar
Re6/6
Posts: 400
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:53 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Re6/6 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:57 pm

I agree with you completely Phil. Ever since Brian showed me his method it has been the way to go for me. It's so quick, easy and accurate whatever the angle.
John

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1048
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby David B » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:04 pm

. . . and me, Philip. It is so quick and simple.

Enigma
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Enigma » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:47 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I prefer Brian’s method of vee construction simply because it’s quicker and easier. It doesn’t bother me that it’s not ‘quite right’ because it’s almost impossible to tell that when it’s in place on the turnout!

Philip

I may well be joining you next time I have to build some points - which MAY be quite soon. I've been tempted in the past but now I know I won't be alone I can do it! :thumb

petermeyer
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby petermeyer » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:02 am

Hi Tony

This is leaping ahead I know but I note from the photo of the single slip build on your Brimsdown thread that the blades are made all as one piece both ends included! Is there any magical way in doing this to get them to line up including the bend please?

Cheers

Peter

Single_slip.jpg

Tony Wilkins
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:58 pm

petermeyer wrote:Hi Tony

This is leaping ahead I know but I note from the photo of the single slip build on your Brimsdown thread that the blades are made all as one piece both ends included! Is there any magical way in doing this to get them to line up including the bend please?

Cheers

Peter

Single_slip.jpg


Hi Peter.
No, not really.
I will cover slips in some detail later, I have been having to deal with other matters recently.
I start with a length of rail several mm longer than the final length and produce the first switch blade. This is then held with the tip of the blade in the correct position to mark the centre of the bend. This needs to be done fairly carefully. The rail is then bent to the required angle and the rail checked against the template. It is possible to adjust the bend position if needed. It is still possible to hold the rail in the switch blade filing jig after bending. The trickiest part is to mark the other end, which still requires filing (planing). This needs to be right as once cut there is no going back. The second switch blade is then filed being careful not to either overdo it or bend it in the process. I have to confess to the occasional failure especially with steel rail where very thin blades can have a tendency to collapse without warning during filing. This leaves no option but to start again.
Regards
Tony.

petermeyer
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby petermeyer » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:10 pm

Tony Wilkins wrote:Hi Peter.
No, not really.
I will cover slips in some detail later, I have been having to deal with other matters recently.
I start with a length of rail several mm longer than the final length and produce the first switch blade. This is then held with the tip of the blade in the correct position to mark the centre of the bend. This needs to be done fairly carefully. The rail is then bent to the required angle and the rail checked against the template. It is possible to adjust the bend position if needed. It is still possible to hold the rail in the switch blade filing jig after bending. The trickiest part is to mark the other end, which still requires filing (planing). This needs to be right as once cut there is no going back. The second switch blade is then filed being careful not to either overdo it or bend it in the process. I have to confess to the occasional failure especially with steel rail where very thin blades can have a tendency to collapse without warning during filing. This leaves no option but to start again.
Regards
Tony.


Thanks Tony

I thought as much. I'll give it a try remaking mine and see how it goes using this method.

Regards

Peter

User avatar
Serjt-Dave
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:45 am

Hi Tony, just finished my first attempt in make a B7 right hand point using your destruction's em I mean instruction's. Overall it went together very well and with no real problems. I've run small wheel based wagons and coach boogies through and they glide through the frog, crossing Vee and over the switch blade tips.

The only time I felt I wasn't sure what I was doing was forming the wing rails of the frog. I just bent them to that on the pattern on the Templot. It worked but I don't know how or why?

For my part these are the few issues I had

After laying out the sleepers on the Templot which had double sided tape on it I marked the points where the rivet needed to go. The pen I used, the ink bleed into the wood rather than leaving a a dot, so next time get a different pen. Went to use the hole punch and the pin didn't penetrate the sleeper but pushed up through the tool. I'm using 1.5 mm C&L laser cut sleepers. So I had to drill the holes by hand and so they lets say wandered a bit. I now have a older style riveter where the pin can't push back through the tool. Getting back to removing the sleepers from the double sided tape, I found that when pulling the sleepers off the tape apart from pulling the tape up and distorting it, sometimes the sleeper would leave bits of itself behind. So when you laid the sleeper back in it's place it didn't stick too well. This then caused issues later in construction with it going out of alignment. Either get new tape or mark out the sleepers and punch and rivet them before sticking them down. I only had the plastic slide chairs to use but in future will use brass ones.

When making the switch blades you mention for B types the straight part of them is 29.3mm. How is the dimension obtained for other types?

This point may end up in the fiddle yard so I'm going to had chairs etc but before then I will wire it up and run some stock through just to check my handy work. Before I commence making track for my layout I want to build a curve point. I've printed the chosen victim off of my track plan so if it works out okay I can use it on the layout.

Thanks very much Tony for producing your track making thread I for one found it a real help.

All Best

Dave
20190418_215623.jpg

20190418_215714.jpg

20190418_215727.jpg

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:51 am

Serjt-Dave wrote:After laying out the sleepers on the Templot which had double sided tape on it I marked the points where the rivet needed to go. The pen I used, the ink bleed into the wood rather than leaving a a dot, so next time get a different pen. Went to use the hole punch and the pin didn't penetrate the sleeper but pushed up through the tool. I'm using 1.5 mm C&L laser cut sleepers.

Hi Dave,

A couple of points. The punch tools are designed for traditional 1/32" (0.8mm) ply timbers. You are using double that thickness, so it's not surprising the punch tools failed and you needed to drill them instead.

For marking timbers, don't use a pen or pencil. Lightly stab them with a sharp point such as a centre-punch, scriber, or needle in a pin chuck. This not only makes a more precisely positioned mark, it provides a start in the right place for the drill.

For marking out / drilling, the easy way is to get Templot to print the rivet centres on tracing paper. Stick the timbers on it, turn it over, and mark the centres through it with the centre punch, or if using a Dremel-type hand-held mini-drill you can drill through the template without needing to mark first.

Image

Image

Turn the timbers over for use on the construction template, so that the marks will be on, or drilled from, the top surface of the timber. Then the drilling will give you a cleaner hole on that side to allow the rivet head to sit flat.

More about how to print the rivet centres instead of the rail edges, here (it's 12 years old, so may be a little out of date):

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=283&forum_id=1

cheers,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

User avatar
Serjt-Dave
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: Turnout construction - Question here please.

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:45 am

Thanks Martin. I'm pleased to say my new rivet press {new it looks like it came off the Ark} is coping with the thicker sleepers very well. Just laid out my second curved point plus some plain track. Some of the rivets are not totally in line so I'll have ago in printing out the rivet centers on the next print out.

I've now got to be a big boy and make my own 1:10 Vee jig as my EBMA one only goes up to 1:9.

Dave


Return to “Track and Turnouts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dal-t and 5 guests