Edwardian Figures

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Andy W
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Andy W » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:20 pm

Even in my childhood grown-ups wore hats. But why? And why did we suddenly become hatless?
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David Knight
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby David Knight » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:25 pm

Ealing wrote:Even in my childhood grown-ups wore hats. But why? And why did we suddenly become hatless?


Hat hair? Short back and sides was generally unaffected. Longer hair got messed up so the hat lost out. Well, maybe...

Cheers,

David

DougN
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:01 am

Why do I get the image from Monty Python with Michael Palin saying " hats, people aren't wearing enough of them" funny thing is here in Australia in summer practically every school child has to wear them outside during school. I actually chose to wear them during summer.... Mostly to avoid the sun burn! ;)
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

shipbadger
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby shipbadger » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:12 am

Hi all,

The reduction in hat wearing coincides with central heating becoming more common in buildings and a move from public transport to the car. The head is resposible for what at first glance seems a disproportionate amount of heat from the body so if you are hanging around at the bus stop or a draughty railway platform then wearing a hat makes a considerable difference to how warm you feel. The wearing of a heavy overcoat is also now a rarity, I suspect for the same reasons. A younger generation moving from a warm house to a car which may even have electrically heated seats to a warm work environment do not need the clothing which came naturally in years past.

Me, I put on my hat to go from the house to the shed where the railway is :-)

Tony Comber

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jon price
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jon price » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:36 am

Hi

I think Mr Stadden intends a future set to be in working clothes, although suits were bought second hand and worn by all classes of worker, and poorer women could be wearing the same styles as the wealthy, just more worn, for the same reasons.

Hats are the defining difference between now and then. The lounge suit has stayed pretty similar from its adoption as standard wear at the end of the 19th Century. Also hats denoted status and class. Edwardian upper class men wear tall hats in formal situations, trilbys in less formal situations. Middle class and foremen wear bowlers, working class and clerks wear flat caps.

I'm not worried about sitting figures in carriages. I spent too much on several packs of sitting and standing Preiser Edwardians (yes 1/87 but well within the normal height range for the period) to put inside LNWR 57' stock, which have large windows on the corridor side, and despite being quite brightly coloured they can barely be seen. I think you could probably get away with 2D figures made of coloured card inside most compartment stock as they are only glimpsed from a single narrow viepoint.

Jon Price
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Armchair Modeller

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Armchair Modeller » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:32 am

As for why male hats disappeared - I thought it was the arrival of Brylcream? ;)

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John McAleely
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby John McAleely » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:41 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:As for why male hats disappeared - I thought it was the arrival of Brylcream? ;)


I've been taught somewhere along the line that they disappeared because of wider access to the ability to wash your hair. Our predecessors did it much less frequently, and a hat had the useful property of helping to keep it clean.

Of course, this trend goes together with things like wider availability of central heating, cars & styling products, so picking them apart is presumably a challenge :-)

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jon price
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jon price » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:41 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:As for why male hats disappeared - I thought it was the arrival of Brylcream? ;)


Pomade for hair had been around for a long time. That is why there were cloths on the back of arm chairs (antimacassars) to stop the upholstry getting greasy
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jayell

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jayell » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:27 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:As for why male hats disappeared - I thought it was the arrival of Brylcream? ;)


I don't ever remember wearing a hat except in a uniform of some sort, so school cap, scout hat or RAF beret - and even the school cap came off once out of sight of the school. Once past the second year of grammar school I and quite a few other pupils acquired caps by getting the scruffiest caps to be found in the porter's office.

I don't remember my Father wearing a hat either once he left the army though he did wear a lounge suit for any sort of 'formal' occasion. I suppose 18 years of having to wear some kind of uniform hat most of the time was quite enough.

I did wear climbing or cycling helmets a lot whilst I was active in those sports but they aren't exactly everyday wear so I can say I haven't worn a conventional hat ever. I sometimes try a hat on when out shopping but haven't found anything I'd like to be seen in and my wife agrees with that view.

I really dislike the modern trend for wearing baseball caps especially when worn sideways or back to front but that may because I am old :(

John

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Will L
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Will L » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:23 am

Old as you are John you're not Edwardian. I still remember when I was a kid the older generation hat wearing, but like yours, my dad (born 1918) rarely did once he left the army after the war. Just shows how long ago the hat thing went out of fashion.

Will

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LesGros
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby LesGros » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:07 am

Jayell wrote:
I really dislike the modern trend for wearing baseball caps especially when worn sideways or back to front but that may because I am old :(

I am with you in disliking sideways, and back to front; although when worn the normal way the brim is very handy for keeping the sun out of my eyes, or rain off my specs. Of course one accepts that sartorial elegance it is not. :)

For hats on the model inhabitants, contemporary photos will be the best guide for your period.

Les
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Natalie Graham

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Natalie Graham » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:46 am

johnlewis wrote:I really dislike the modern trend for wearing baseball caps especially when worn sideways or back to front but that may because I am old :(


Baseball caps are meant to be worn back to front though. So the catcher and home plate umpire can wear face masks over them. There is also the question that if the majority of wearers have the peak at the back does that mean that is the right way round and to wear them with the peak at the front is wearing them back to front?

I don't think there was any technical innovation that ended the near universal practice of wearing hats. It was more a fashion thing as a result of the cultural changes of the '60s. While a trilby might have looked very good when the normal attire was a dark suit, a white shirt with a dark tie, and an over coat, (See archive footage of the crowd at cricket test matches). they didn't really go so well with wide flairs and tie-dyed kaftans. Even though the older generation did not necessarily follow the latest trends it did mean that it became acceptable to be seen out without a hat

jayell

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jayell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:33 am

Natalie Graham wrote:
johnlewis wrote:
Baseball caps are meant to be worn back to front though. So the catcher and home plate umpire can wear face masks over them. There is also the question that if the majority of wearers have the peak at the back does that mean that is the right way round and to wear them with the peak at the front is wearing them back to front?


but in all those submarine films they only turn their caps with peak to back when peering through the periscope ;)

John

jayell

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jayell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:55 am

I have recently re-read Richard Llewellyn's series beginning with 'How Green was my Valley' and there is quite a lot about clothes with Huw being taken to the village tailor to be measured up for a proper suit when he became a 'teenager'

I am pretty sure there is reference to tall hats and bowler hats being worn by miners when going to chapel on Sundays too, but a quick flip through didn't find anything to quote. This was of course a bit earlier than the Edwardian era but Chapel going was treated as a very important occasion and wearing ones 'best clothes' was essential.

I must look to see if there is another repeat of the film on the Free Sat channel I watched it on a week or so ago. I cannot remember what hat the minister wore but Elias the deacon always wore a bowler. My Dad was born in Maerdy in the Rhondda, his Dad had become a collier after leaving the Army (he had served in the Sudan campaigns but not the Boer War), they were Chapel goers as most were at that time and Welsh speaking so much of Richard Llewellyn's first book was quite relevant for me.

My Mother told me of visiting my Dad's step-mother just after I was born and the family only spoke Welsh in her presence which didn't go down well and she didn't visit again. I grew up knowing nothing of my Welsh ancestry or family and only met my Grandfather just before he died. It was only in recent years whilst researching the paternal side of my family tree that I found lots about the family that I suspect my Father didn't know.

John

Armchair Modeller

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:13 pm

Here is a film of a tram ride in 1902 through the centre of Nottingham, from the Midland station to Victoria station. The multitude of hats and style of dress are very interesting - not to mention the road traffic and other details.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/NqNzB2ZjomlaCuDVQymWjsj5yO2gP05G?channelId=default

Natalie Graham

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Natalie Graham » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:33 pm

johnlewis wrote:I have recently re-read Richard Llewellyn's series beginning with 'How Green was my Valley' and there is quite a lot about clothes with Huw being taken to the village tailor to be measured up for a proper suit when he became a 'teenager'
My father spent his first week's wages on his first pair of long trousers.That would have been in 1930.

I have a distant memory of him deciding in the early '60s that he didn't need to always wear his hat whenever he went out. There was quite a serious discussion between him and my mother about whether it would be ok but the verdict was that as other people didn't seem to bother he could go hatless and it was left on the peg in the hall. My mother still continued to wear a hat or a head scarf whenever she went out for some time after this, it being seen as inappropriate for a respectable woman to be seen out with her head uncovered. There were some women who went about with their heads uncovered but they were 'spoken about' and weren't the sort to associate with. Then the younger generation discovered rock and roll (and other things) and all that was left behind. It seems so strange thinking back. By the end of the decade my sister was taking pride in having the shortest mini skirt every year at her work Christmas party.

jayell

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby jayell » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:04 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Here is a film of a tram ride in 1902 through the centre of Nottingham, from the Midland station to Victoria station. The multitude of hats and style of dress are very interesting - not to mention the road traffic and other details.


I had to use win7 to view the film as it needs flash :(

Lots of bowler hats and boaters, even some women wearing the latter. I saw at least one 'top' hat among the pedestrians but it needs to be viewed at a much slower speed to really be able to see the dress styles. 'Big hat's seem to go with light coloured blouses or dresses.

The cyclists take the tramlines in their stride weaving in and out of the traffic despite the risk of wheels getting trapped in the gap, must have had fatter tyres that we do today on road bikes.

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Will L
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Will L » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:48 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Here is a film of a tram ride in 1902 through the centre of Nottingham, from the Midland station to Victoria station. The multitude of hats and style of dress are very interesting - not to mention the road traffic and other details.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/NqNzB2ZjomlaCuDVQymWjsj5yO2gP05G?channelId=default


Smashing, thank you.

will

dal-t
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby dal-t » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:32 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Here is a film of a tram ride in 1902 through the centre of Nottingham, from the Midland station to Victoria station. The multitude of hats and style of dress are very interesting - not to mention the road traffic and other details.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/NqNzB2Z ... Id=default


I'll see your tram ride (actually, I can't, since it's only available in the UK) and raise you one roller-coaster ride (well, it's still on rails - and an interesting 'D&H" configuration, apparently):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/focuson/film/film-archive/player.asp?catID=2&subCatID=1&filmID=2

I count at least two hatless heads, even if one only qualifies for the junior section.
David L-T

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jon price
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Re: Tram Rides film

Postby jon price » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:39 pm

This is an absolutely excellent resourtce for modelling this period. Need to watch it many times to catch everything (people, shops, wagons, posters etc etc) Thanks for posting the link.
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johnWM
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby johnWM » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:03 am

Fabulous clip, what a wonderful find.
Apart from caps, bowlers, and toppers we have quite a few hats shaped like trilbies, a couple like stetsons, lots of what look like straw boaters (far more than I would have guessed,this is Nottingham not Henley after all) a few without hats, ladies in bonnets and lots more. What really struck me is that photographers clearly photographed the trendy, the stereotypes, the unusual, the new, the very poor, the wealthy, the extremes. The timeless, the ordinary, and the just a little bit scruffy, tended to get ignored. A film like this captures it all. I noticed, a lot of fairly anonymous horse drawn vehicles with quite crude heavy spoked wheels in flatbed and low sided form, very common in the film, I have never seen anything like that modeled. We have models of farmers carts, coal wagons, horse drawn buses, hansom cabs etc, but there are no anonymous plain horse drawn vehicles in kit form. I also noticed quite a few men in suits where the style was completely timeless, yes there were a large number of figures that were unmistakeably Edwardian (or a decade either side) but there were others that could have been plucked from 1930 or 1950. Interesting. My conclusion is that if everything in a model is made to "look Edwardian" the timeless and understated bits would be missed, and if everything is modelled to tell a story and have a clear function, we miss the anonymous elements of the scene. Gosh, being authentic and convincing has suddenly got a whole lot harder!

Armchair Modeller

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:20 am

Well, I didn't quite expect all these rave reviews when I posted the link to the film, but I'm very glad that everyone found it inspiring!

One thing I noticed was the boys chasing the tram more or less from the beginning to the end. The cameraman deliberately swings the camera away from them on the way up Queen Street - and there is a long gap before the film restarts on Milton Street when I suspect they may have got very annoying. They seemed to be queuing up for a bit of mischief at the top of Queen Street. Boys will be boys, I guess - whatever the era.

Other things of note are the shop fronts, signage, horse buses galore, despite the trams - and the police with their flat helmets. The way people crossed the road is quite interesting too!

For Nottingham locals, the old Council House building on the Old Market Square seems very strange and austere. It is a shame the film did not look back along Station Street at the start - the old Nottingham Midland station would still have been there.
Last edited by Armchair Modeller on Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Andy W
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Andy W » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:08 pm

It's a fascinating piece, particularly for someone like me who models this period. The sheer variety of transport; fashion etc is stunning. I'll watch this repeatedly.

This depicts Britain at the height of its powers, and shows the Empire's wealth didn't "trickle down" too far through the social stratas.

Those lads would have been between 5 and 10 years old I would think. I wonder how many survived WW1?
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Armchair Modeller

Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:02 pm

1902 was right at the end of the second Boer War, which had plenty of casualties of its own.

If people really want to look at videos instead of modelling, there are more of the same kind on the same site :0

Sheffield http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/VqNTB2Z ... ult/search

Bradford http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/w4MGp1Z ... ult/search

Halifax http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/82MjB2Z ... ult/search

Belfast http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/J1Ynd1Z ... ult/search

Cork http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/A3cmo1Z ... ult/search

Accrington http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/NscjU1Z ... ult/search

and no doubt others.

Totally off-topic, but this one shows a ride in 1902 over the Royal Albert Bridge, track widening on towards Plymouth and over a timber viaduct on the GWR in 1902. The detail is amazing.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/player/tzYmQ0Z ... ult/search

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Will L
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Re: Edwardian Figures

Postby Will L » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:17 pm

Thank you Armchair Modeller, more gold dust. :D

Couple of points. As my wife observed, very few if any ladies are carrying handbag. Parasols, parcels, and occasional coats and cloaks yes, but handbags were clearly a fashion yet to come. Also any Edwardian streets modelled without plentiful horse dung are clearly wrong.

Then those men without hats, look closely and many of the few apparently hatless men/boys are wearing caps. Caps could be very small with only vestigial peeks, almost a skull cap. Such a cap is practically invisible from the front, particularly on anybody with a reasonable amount of hair, and from the back, as they don't change the outline of the head, are hard to distinguish from hair in grainy black and white. My brothers school cap was like this and I don't think his school uniform had changed for many generations, it was that sort of school. He had to go on wearing separate starched shirt collars well after my banker dad was allowed a give up such things. My own school cap was a boat by comparison with his, however both of us would have been in trouble if seen in the streets without it. That was the 50's.

Will


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