What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

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Tor Giffard
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What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Tor Giffard » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:46 pm

Aft'noon all,

There are some eye watering prices starting to appear for etched 2 axle wagon kits to the extent that several potential bulk purchasers of a newly released kit on sale at S4N yesterday (to whom I was chatting) simply laughed at the pricing and walked away without anyone buying any. These same modellers have previously commissioned various etched components for wagons themselves and have considerable experience of what the process costs. From these discussions I understand almost £40 to be around double what might be reasonably expected for such a kit. This issue is then exacerbated by a minimal reduction being on offer for purchasing e.g. 10 or more, when one of the main advantages of ordering etches in quantity is the significant savings attainable per unit.

Given that trains generally contained several of an individual wagon type and could be formed exclusively of similar types, how short sighted is it to charge inflated prices?

There is clearly some degree of scope within pricing to allow for the complexity of individual wagon types.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

garethashenden
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby garethashenden » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:39 pm

I think everything is relative, but the prices of plastic kits probably has some bearing on what people think "kits" cost.

A Parkside 16T mineral is £8.25, add to that a Rumney Models chassis (£8), LMS buffers (£2), MJT axleboxes and springs (£2), and a pair of Gibson wheels (£2.85). We're now up to £23.10 for a "standard" plastic wagon with etched underframe.

Now that can be viewed as an £8 kit with some extras or as a £23 kit. I think there can be some leeway for highly detailed complete kits, but if it's more than a 50% premium (£30) it's going to be harder to sell.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Tor Giffard » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:51 pm

....I recently purchased 10 x bodywork only (for the PC01A kit) from Parkside (at £2 a go) to pair with Rumney underframes. There is no need to buy the unwanted parts of the Parkside kits.

This creates a much bigger gap in pricing twixt some 'all etched kits' and the etched underframe/moulded plastic body route.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby jim s-w » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:12 pm

I think your figures are a bit off for a 'standard' plastic wagon kit. Adding an etched chassis (which is a nice to have and not a necessity) takes it a long way from a standard kit. Plus with parkside they include the wheels.

Cheers

Jim

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Noel
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Noel » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:13 pm

Tor Giffard wrote:Given that trains generally contained several of an individual wagon type and were often formed exclusively of similar types


This rather depends on what period you model. In the late 1950s 16Ton minerals were very common in many freight trains. There were about a dozen different types. There were probably around a dozen Horse Box designs in use [which were technically passenger stock, I know, but the empties did appear in freights]. Ordinary van types in use numbered about 20. I could go on. Apart from specialist vehicles such as Iron Ore Tipplers or coke hoppers [and there were three types of them], trains of one type of vehicle were rare. A through goods of 40+ wagons could have no two the same, and this is even more likely prior to nationalisation. Block trains of one type only became more common from the mid-1960s onwards.

Tor Giffard wrote:how short sighted is it to charge inflated prices


I don't use etched brass wagon kits, however, the minimum seems to be about £20, but at that price they may well lack detail or springing, or both. In any event the ranges available are often quite limited in the prototypes included. Are you sure that you are comparing like for like?
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Noel

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Noel
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Noel » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:14 pm

jim s-w wrote:Plus with parkside they include the wheels.


But they do charge extra for P4 wheels.
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Noel

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jim s-w
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby jim s-w » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:25 pm

Only a token amount Noel. Not full price.

Cheers

Jim

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jim s-w
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby jim s-w » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:28 pm

The only etched wagon kit I've built was a falcon brass gannet. The kit was £25 (not really worth it) but that did need sprung w-irons, wheels, MJT springs and axle boxes and LMS buffers. In fact pretty much everything Gareth said ;)

Jim

garethashenden
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby garethashenden » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:15 pm

jim s-w wrote:I think your figures are a bit off for a 'standard' plastic wagon kit. Adding an etched chassis (which is a nice to have and not a necessity) takes it a long way from a standard kit. Plus with parkside they include the wheels.

Cheers

Jim


Oh it's definitely not a necessity, but a lot of people do do that. I was trying to set out the prices for a "premium" wagon, as I thought that might be closer to the standard of a newly designed etched kit.

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jim s-w
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby jim s-w » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:29 pm

Hi Gareth

Fair enough - I see your point now

Jim

meld
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby meld » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:08 pm

If this is the kit I think it is then I suspect that they haven't thought through the cost of the construction method and the amount of brass involved. I also suspect that they haven't thought about the cost of R&D, packing and attending shows either.

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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Crepello » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:25 pm

meld wrote:I also suspect that they haven't thought about the cost of R&D, packing and attending shows either.

Would this thread not have arisen if they had?

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jim s-w
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby jim s-w » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:30 pm

is there some sort of embargo on saying what kit people are talking about?

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grovenor-2685
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:31 pm

meld wrote:If this is the kit I think it is then I suspect that they haven't thought through the cost of the construction method and the amount of brass involved. I also suspect that they haven't thought about the cost of R&D, packing and attending shows either.

So you are saying that it is not expensive at all but should be significantly more. :)
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meld
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby meld » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:05 pm

I'm guessing its the Rumney Fish Van (http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=2631&start=50#p44160). This uses layered construction of the sides to ensure alignment, as used in 2mm scale etched wagon kits. This means that the body isn't just a simple brass 'box' but two or more to get the required depth. This will increase the cost while not necessarily being obvious in the finished model as most of the brass is etched away.

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iak
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby iak » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:37 pm

Doesn't worry me.
The cost is what it is, some will find it too high and others will not.
What must be remembered is that a lot time and effort appears to have gone into producing an excellent product, based on something that has not been, to my knowledge, done before.
Justins products are game changers in my opinion, remember he has reduced his prices in the past after assesing the market and its reaction.
People really must be careful with what is said or implied :?
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Tor Giffard
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Tor Giffard » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:56 pm

....on the contrary Iain. If complex production techniques are required to make available models which have previously been unavailable due to their level of difficulty, then it is important for any potential purchasers to understand this. There will also be implications for other similarly difficult prototypes. If the cost is justified then I see no issue, however, there are a number of models in both RTR and kit form on the market which even after investigation do not justify their price tag.

Dave

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Coronach
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Coronach » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:08 pm

I would have thought that the price on a bulk purchase might be negotiable. Having seen the kit, it's certainly of the highest quality, very well designed and similarly executed. this kit, may well be expensive but I personally believe Justin puts heart and soul into his projects. I suspect he may well drop the asking price, but given the quality of the kit I still reckon £30 is justifiable here. Not that I can personally afford this kind of largesse right now!

Dave.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Tor Giffard » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:20 pm

....I had a similar experience with an expensive product when commissioning and raising interest in P4 wheelsets for the Dapol Beattie Well tank from Ultrascale Dave. I have no issue with paying for quality products but do need to understand where the necessary price differential comes from.

Dave

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David B
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby David B » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Noel wrote:
jim s-w wrote:Plus with parkside they include the wheels.


But they do charge extra for P4 wheels.


I will contradict you here. I bought 3 Parkside kits today and Richard H told me he would replace the OO wheels with P4 ones (Gibson) at no extra charge.

I also bought a couple of white metal kits from David Geen, no wheels, and they were £15 each. For someone else, I bought 2 etched kits from Dave Bradwell and they were £20 each, just for the etches, one was just the wagon body, the other a pair of single bolsters.
Last edited by David B on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John Donnelly
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:38 pm

David B wrote:I will contradict you here. I bought 3 Parkside kits today and Richard H told me he would replace the OO wheels with P4 ones (Gibson) at no extra charge.


He did the same for me yesterday for the 3 kits I bought at no additional cost. I'd not even considered it until he said "I assume you'll want P4 wheels with those"...

John

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Mike Garwood
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Mike Garwood » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:09 am

Tor Giffard wrote:....I had a similar experience with an expensive product when commissioning and raising interest in P4 wheelsets for the Dapol Beattie Well tank from Ultrascale Dave. I have no issue with paying for quality products but do need to understand where the necessary price differential comes from.

Dave


Why?

Do you think some unscrupulous lone trader operating from his home is going to make a killing on one product alone? If you had the first incline of how Justin approached the design and test builds you would not be asking this question. If you want the product pay the price or do it yourself, those are your options. Moaning about what a trader charges when you have no facts about the product design/cost or the length of development seems pretty poor show and doesn't encourage anyone. Starting a thread like this on a public forum is pretty shocking, to pick on one individual product from one trader, when you have no facts!

Mike

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Tor Giffard
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:12 am

....you might like to check where I "picked on" anyone Mike. Let me know whereabouts in this thread it occurred please.

Dave

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Mike Garwood
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby Mike Garwood » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:32 am

Tor Giffard wrote:....you might like to check where I "picked on" anyone Mike. Let me know whereabouts in this thread it occurred please.

Dave


When Justin was named by meld, you did nothing to contradict that posting. So, either confirm or deny.

Mike

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PeteT
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Re: What is a reasonable price for a 2 axle etched wagon kit?

Postby PeteT » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:16 am

This topic appears to have started with 2 themes - 1 of the base cost of kits and another of bulk purchases. The former has been covered so far, and explained and discussed.

For the latter, it may depend what people think counts as buying in bulk?

Buying 20 of something in one hit would probably justify a discount of some form, while suggesting that over time someone would buy 5 if they liked how the first one goes together, would in my opinion not.

People always seem more willing to splash the cash on locos and not on the stock they pull, and equally ignore the ammount of research that is required to make it right alongside being easy to assemble. I would like to think that P4 modellers are more pragmatic, but I'm not totally convinced.

Horses for courses really - you get out what you put in in terms of both finance and time. A rake of plastic wagon kits can be assembled relatively cheaply and quickly, while those with bits of brass around them will cost more and take longer to assemble - but have the potential to look much better in the end.


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