Chairs and Rail

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:42 am

John Palmer wrote:
bobwallison wrote:Please can someone point me to the guidance for adding proper links to a post?

Hi John, Bob,

Right-click on this tiny barely visible icon on the relevant post:

s4_links.png
s4_links.png (11.01 KiB) Viewed 1815 times

Then select Copy Link Location.

And simply paste it into your reply:

viewtopic.php?p=63968#p63968

(the board will truncate it by removing the domain name)

p.s. links to posts don't always work first time on this board. The trick is to wait for the page to finish loading, then click in the browser address bar, then press the Enter key. The page will then jump to the correct post.

cheers,

Martin.
39 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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David Thorpe
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby David Thorpe » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:14 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:But the problem is in the rail, not the chairs, is it not? See the post further up where it states that C&Ls own chairs have the same issue on the Hi-Ni rail.


Well, that's what Colin said. It doesn't accord exactly with my own expoeriences. In laying my track several years ago I used both Exactoscale and C&L chairs with Hi-Ni rail. My recollection is that the Exactoscale chairs were a tighter fit and as a result more (sometimes very) difficult to thread onto the rail which was a pain. I do remember that once fitted they were a bit bowed at the base, but like Peter Meyer I assumed that that was normal and that it wouldn't cause any problems (which I don't think it did). C&L chairs were an easier fit which made the tedious task of threading them on both easier and quicker, but they certainly weren't loose. I can't remember whether the C&L chairs once fitted were bowed or not.

As to statements that it's the rail that's the problem, not the chairs, Tim's comment that it happened to him using steel rail suggests that that may not be the case. But at the end of the day, looking at it practically and having noted the effect Butanone has on a bowed chair, is it actually a problem at all?

DT

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Colin Parks
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:19 pm

Hello David,

I cannot say what steel bullhead rail is like to use - or the details of its dimensions. Are we are to assume that the steel rail is to the correct profile and still the chairs would not slide on? Could the steel rail have been made using the same tool as the Hi-nickel rail? Who knows? But as you say, there is no problem with using Hi-nickel rail once the chairs are fixed down.

Re. the C&L chairs, I found that they bent more easily around the Hi-nickel rail, therefore sliding on more loosely (and some fell off during tracklaying). When I used Exactoscale chairs, they were less flexible, so did not go on so easily.

Whatever, the Hi-nickel rail is hard to thread chairs onto and the rail head does not match the P4 wheel profile.

All the best,

Colin

bobwallison
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby bobwallison » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:11 pm

Thank you John and Martin for answering my plea about posting links on the forum.

I wonder if people's different experiences are down to timing? Dies wear out, as do moulds for plastic injection, and probably not at the same rate. The Exactoscale chairs and Hi-Ni rail I bought six or seven years ago worked well together - there was a bit of curvature on the base of the chair, easily resolved when fixing in place with Butanone. I cannot say the same for the chairs and rail which I bought in September 2017, which were the subject of the trials described above. Has anybody else got experience of using Exactoscale chairs with Hi-Ni rail, both of them bought within - say - the last 18 months? Did you have similar problems with distortion and to what extent: as bad as sample 1, 2 ,3 or 4?

When I looked again at Sample 1 through a jeweller's loupe under a good light, I could see daylight through the chair's jaws - the only points of contact were round the foot of the rail. We know from the drawing above that the foot of Hi-Ni rail is sound, so to my mind this confirms that the chairs are part of the problem (or at least this batch is). Maybe things will improve now that Andrew has taken back control of Exactoscale products.

On a more upbeat note, I have now fixed each sample to a ply timber with Butanone, and I have to say they have all come out well - bases nice and flat and rail correctly inclined. I will try a length of rail threaded with chairs straight from the sprue, although I am still a little concerned about how this will work during the gluing process - when some chairs will have been glued flat and others - just a few centimetres away, will still be bent like a boomerang.

David is quite right to ask if all this is actually a problem at all. I would say it is: even if things turn out right in the end, surely P4 modellers (and even EM modellers, like me!) shouldn't have to rely on forcing things into the right shape with a firm hand and a powerful solvent?

Regards,
Bob

andrew jukes
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby andrew jukes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:49 am

This is a problem that could be caused either by too 'fat' rail or by chairs in which the rail space has reduced over time.

Perhaps worth saying that the Exactoscale chairs were developed using rail from a substantial batch of code 75 mild steel BH rail I had delivered in 2003 (Some from Bernard Weller's time would have used earlier rail). With one exception, the chairs and FastTrack all seem an equally god fit. I have had a discussion with the rail supplier and will send them a sample of the 2003 rail to compare with the settings of the tooling used for more recent production. It is also possible there may have been some wear in the rollers used to create the rail form, but that is felt to be unlikely.

I shall also compare the fit of the 2003 rail in S1 3-hole chairs from a production run just done with the fit in the oldest mouldings I can find here. I suspect ageing of the plastic may be a bigger factor than variations in the 'as moulded' dimensions. I shall also ask our plastic moulding firm how much wear they would expect to see in the high spec. stainless steel tooling we use.

It may sound unhelpful but I would rule out re-working the chair mould tools, even if there has been some dimensional drift. The range is large and the cost involved would be very high.

I have not mentioned Hi-Ni rail as have no experience of it at all. I understand it is produced using the same rollers and same settings as the mild steel rail.

I will report back when I know more.

Andrew

bobwallison
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby bobwallison » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:42 pm

Andrew,
Many thanks for the above and I look forward to hearing more.

I have emailed C&L concerning the profile of their HiNi rail and including a link to this thread. With their agreement, I will post any reply here.

Regards,
Bob

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby stephenfreeman » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Hi,
There was a useful exchange of info on Templot club not long ago when dimensions were looked at in relation to 3d printing.

HiNi came out as a problem. If you want a rail that fits Exactoscale chairs you could look at DCc Concepts Stainless steel. It does need a different approach but not without its rewards.
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borg-rail.com or http://www.tracknsignals.co.uk

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:45 am

andrew jukes wrote:I have had a discussion with the rail supplier and will send them a sample of the 2003 rail to compare with the settings of the tooling used for more recent production. It is also possible there may have been some wear in the rollers used to create the rail form, but that is felt to be unlikely.

Andrew


Could you have a look at this old thread:
viewtopic.php?f=106&t=5066

It is where I raised the subject of deteriorated rail head shape in 2016.

If you are going to get your rail manufacturer to look at the web and bottom shape wrt chair fit then please take the opportunity to review and hopefully restore the head profile.

As I said in 2016, I value the finer appearance of our earlier Studiolith supplied rail with more rounded head and this alone justifies some expense. If a better gauge corner gives better running too that is a bonus.

bobwallison
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby bobwallison » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:23 am

Thanks Stephen. I'll have a look for that.

Regards,
Bob

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Colin Parks
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:40 pm

Just to add that some of my S1 chairs came from an Exactoscale packet with an Epsom address, so they must be quite old. There was the same problem with threading the chairs and the curvature of the bases. Similarly, Exactoscale S1 chairs dating from 2015 and some Exactoscale S1 chairs bought from C&L this January had the same issue. My Hi-nickel rail was all bought in 2015.

seanmcs
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby seanmcs » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:23 am

In 2090 I bought from C & L GW chairs, Code 75 Bullhead rail N/S and some N/S flexitrack. Having read an earlier post that due to the then (and till now?) dimensions of the rail profile being overscale as discussed, I acquired a Mint gauge and found that 9 years after purchase the flexitrack gauge had narrowed somewhat. The Mint gauge will only fit between the rails if pushed down hard. However, pushing around some representative rolling stock showed no dramas, but I have no turnouts laid yet.

I am daunted at the idea of filing hundreds of small plastic chairs as so well described earlier. Rather, I ask if anyone has tried the Society's N/S Code 75 rail and does it have a better fitting profile in C & L chairs, please?

Sean

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:51 pm

I wonder if we might not be creating a problem where none exists? I say this with caution being relatively new to all of this.

I found the chairs a right pain to thread on to the rail initially. As a work around I tried clipping them over the rail rather than threading on and this appears to work well without any damage to the chairs. I find it quite quick and easy and I have taken a few off and on without problems.

As far as the bow in the base of the chair is concerned ... as mentioned before this disappeared for me with the butanone without any fuss - so the web may be over thick but I found no need to file individual chairs (which would I suspect be a very tedious process).

I may just have experienced beginners luck ... but neither the rail head profile nor the bow in the chairs has caused any running problems and to date all is good. I accept that a different rail head profile might be a visual improvement, but to my eyes the completed track looks pretty fine as is.
Tim Lee

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barrowroad
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby barrowroad » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:08 pm

I agree with Tim. I have used hundreds of Exactoscale chairs on my Bristol Barrow Road layout without any problems. I thread the chairs on N/S bullhead rail - source the stores and C & L - and fix to ply sleepers using Butanone. I leave track gauges in place during the gluing process and add some weight across them until fixed.

Robin

Knuckles
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Knuckles » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:26 pm

seanmcs wrote:In 2090 I bought from C & L GW.........


Don't think you did...unless you own a functioning Tardis! :mrgreen:
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.

andrew jukes
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby andrew jukes » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:35 am

I am trying to chase this through to a conclusion. To do this, I need samples of recent production of both mild steel and HiNi NS to do all necessary comparisons. I only need an 80mm length of each. It must be recent production and I need to know where it was purchased.

Can anyone help? If I get a volunteer or two, I will PM with details of where to send them.

Andrew

seanmcs
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby seanmcs » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:36 am

Knuckles: yes looking in the unlikely zone of superannuation. But I did not know how to edit that one.

Best. Sean

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Bernie
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Bernie » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:27 am

Mr Jukes,
I can supply hi-ni puchased earlier this year if it helps?

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby stephenfreeman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:34 am

Hi
It all depends on how recent? HiNi this year, Society NS this year , mild steel from C&L not sure but within last few years (I don't get asked for.much of it) DCC Concepts Stainless Steel within last 12 months.
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borg-rail.com or http://www.tracknsignals.co.uk

Albert Hall
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Albert Hall » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 am

To the best of my recollections from working at C+L, all of the steel rail sold was that which was handed over to Pete in 2011. There was more than sufficient stock to meet demand over the following 5 - 6 years although much of it had started to corrode in the damp workshop. A batch of HiNi tended to last around 2 years and from memory 2 new batches were drawn probably around 2013 and 2016.

There was a quality control issue with part of the 2013 batch which exhibited a significant twist along the length of each metre or curvature in the vertical plane. My understanding is that it was due to a tensioning issue as the wire was drawn. Once identified it was extracted and either returned to the supplier or used to be chopped up for common crossings and check rails where the twist over a short length was not perceptable. No doubt a certain amount escaped before the issues were identified.

I never heard anything regarding issues with the actual profile but that is not to say that they didn't exist. Assembling EM flexitrack was always difficult due to the tightness of the rail in the chairs of the C+L thin sleeper bases. P4 and OO did not present similar problems to anything like the same extent which pointed to the EM plastic moulding being the culprit. The situation did ease a little after the mould tool had been fettled although it is possible that we compensated for a deteriorating rail profile by making adjustments in the wrong area. However, bullhead rail always went into the Fast Track bases cleanly and without undue force suggesting that if the rail web had been any thinner it would have resulted in a very loose fit.

I have no idea if Phil has had to obtain further stocks of either type since he took control of the business.

Roy

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Noel
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:50 am

seanmcs wrote:Knuckles: yes looking in the unlikely zone of superannuation. But I did not know how to edit that one.


If you look at your post, you should have four icons in the top RH corner. If you hover the cursor on the left hand one [a pen or pencil?] you will get a "Edit post" hint; clicking on it will take you to a new screen where you can edit the post as you want.
Noel

bobwallison
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby bobwallison » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm

Andrew,

If you wish, I can provide a length of HiNi rail bought from C&L's stand at ExpoEM on 20 May 2018. Cannot help with recent steel rail, unfortunately.

Would you also like a sprue of Exactoscale S1 chairs from the batch which has been giving me grief? Bought from C&L in 2017, I think.

Regards,
Bob

David Knight
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby David Knight » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:28 pm

To answer my own question and that of at least one other member, there does not seem to be a problem with rail from S4stores. I got a shipment in just yesterday (thanks Jeremy) which I fettled the end of then slide onto a sample or three of C&L chairs purchased for me at Scaleforum (thanks Mark) with no problem at all. Any bowing was minimal and would disappear when given a dose of PlasticWeld and was due to a very fine web on the C&L chairs, doubtless a sign of wear in the dies for the chairs.

Cheers,

David

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:27 am

Albert Hall wrote:There was a quality control issue with part of the 2013 batch which exhibited a significant twist along the length of each metre or curvature in the vertical plane. My understanding is that it was due to a tensioning issue as the wire was drawn. Once identified it was extracted and either returned to the supplier or used to be chopped up for common crossings and check rails where the twist over a short length was not perceptible. No doubt a certain amount escaped before the issues were identified.

Roy

I can certainly vouch for where 100metres of this Hi-Ni rail went. Last year I discovered I had a batch where there was as much as 45 degrees twist over a metre length. Largely cured by holding one end in a vice and twisting the other progressively by up to 900 degrees.
Regards
Tony.

Albert Hall
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Albert Hall » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:03 am

This problem only came to light when the rail was used to make flexitrack. We noticed that it would not lie down flat but we quickly ruled out a problem with the sleeper bases. It was initially thought that once the track was fixed down to a base material the problem would go away but the tendency of the rail to want to twist exacerbated the existing undergauging issue with P4 track.

Roy

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Chairs and Rail

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:07 pm

To add to the fun, Phoenix Precision Paints are now swelling 4mm and 7mm BH rail;

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/produc ... il/9-90002

Chairs will, I believe, be following in due course.


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