Hartleyburn Colliery

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Porcy Mane
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Porcy Mane » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:11 am

DougN wrote:Oh I really like that low set Carricks building. the building looks normal until you notice the wagon is almost at the gutter line of the roof!

On another thing is the something I am researching, the sleepers appearing grey as the ballast looks black. Oh for a good colour photo of this type of detail!


I think it's an exaggerated effect caused by the wet sleepers reflecting the glum grey Cumberland sky.

Then there's this.

Leamsline017-© PwD2022-EditSm.jpg


I do have other photographs of bleached out sleepers but they tend to have been taken over the last 30 years or so.

"Edit" There is a 1925 aerial image of Carricks on the Britain from Above website (registered users can zoom the images). It shows the site previous to the construction of the low building and some freshly ballasted track. See:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW014312

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Paul Willis
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:40 am

DougN wrote:Oh I really like that low set Carricks building. the building looks normal until you notice the wagon is almost at the gutter line of the roof!

On another thing is the something I am researching, the sleepers appearing grey as the ballast looks black. Oh for a good colour photo of this type of detail!


Doug,

I have a feeling that the colours that you imply are because because it's a wet day in the Borders (are there any other types...?).

The flattish wet surface of the sleeper tops is reflecting much more of the minimal light level back upwards compared to the ballast. Which may also have taken the water and darkened on the surface anyway, as stone like granite does.

Jim S-W may have some thoughts on the colouring of track in wet weather, as Brettell Lane is set in the rain.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
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charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:05 am

Revised locking chart.
I’ve redrawn the track plan again to save having to scroll back.
Taken on board as many comments as possible but I’d still like to have 9 on the frame and locked by signals to prevent accidental point movement with stock passing over.
918170AD-FBB5-44A0-B1B4-1FF557637FE9.jpeg

If this looks ok then I’ll redo the dog chart.
No doubt I will have missed something but it looks a lot clearer.
Charlie
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:13 pm

Yes, looks much better, given your choice on point 9 everything looks good to me. Except 6 and 10 should be shown to lock 2, and 11 to lock 4. The reciprocals of locks are always shown in the table. (Even though there will only be one lock in the dog chart).
Regards
Keith
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DougN
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby DougN » Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:04 am

Thanks to Charlie and Porcy. As the ash ballast is so "dead" black in colour the sleepers need to be brought out a fair bit. The stained timbers of Charlies is approaching what I thought they should be... a dark colour with a dry brush with a grey/ leather... in model terms. Porcy's photo confirms this really though it is modern trackwork.

Its one thing we are trying to achieve a more realistic view of the sleeper..rather than "peco" black plastic sleepers. Some people spray the trackwork brown then install the grey/ brown ballast. However the NER's cinder ballast needs something to make the sleepers appear that they are there!

IT is the challenge of old photo's colour, or black and white, the "colour" washes out due to the age, or photographic process. I find it more challenging from Australia as our light is highly glarey, and local railways are quite different to what the UK' has. Leave a timber outside for a month and it will grey very quickly, even treated timber grey.

thanks for all the comments!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

davebradwell
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby davebradwell » Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:26 am

However...........where there was regular coal traffic, the sleepers and ballast between the rails became completely buried in coal dust which leaked from the wagon hopper doors and this dust also subdued the rust colour of the rails. The effect is clearly visible in those Ian Allan colour "portfolios" of the NE. Probably best used with restraint to avoid losing the effect of a pair of lines, sadly missing from the modern high speed railway but very much a part of why we use P4.

There I was, wondering if I was supposed to be painting all my chair bolts dull white.

DaveB

Daddyman
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Daddyman » Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:03 am

Porcy Mane wrote: I do have other photographs of bleached out sleepers but they tend to have been taken over the last 30 years or so.


There'll surely be loads in Ernie Brack's other albums NE?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:28 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Yes, looks much better, given your choice on point 9 everything looks good to me. Except 6 and 10 should be shown to lock 2, and 11 to lock 4. The reciprocals of locks are always shown in the table. (Even though there will only be one lock in the dog chart).

Thanks ever so much for looking at this and pointing out the ones I missed !
This is really at the simple end of interlocking so heaven knows how Howard managed to get 70 done ?
Next stop the dog chart !

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:48 pm

Just a progress photo on the frame itself.
All levers done and a start on the locking frame.
It goes together so precisely, if only all kits were so good !
I’d say it’s not a kit for beginners but the instructions say get 179 solder and phosphoric acid flux and a good iron, which I think has helped me. I cheat little and beef up the heat gently with a cooks torch, a handy item I use for silver soldering silver jewellery as well.
501DB696-24E1-4E67-A403-09B2199239B9.jpeg
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Porcy Mane
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Porcy Mane » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:54 am

davebradwell wrote:However...........where there was regular coal traffic, the sleepers and ballast between the rails became completely buried in coal dust which leaked from the wagon hopper doors and this dust also subdued the rust colour of the rails.


... and if the loaded coal traffic was predominantly uni-directional, it was't to difficult for the lay person to tell which way that traffic went.

Winning-Permissive-AnotherBrake.jpg


Some colliery screening plants used straw (or grass) in attempting to seal hopper doors.

davebradwell wrote: There I was, wondering if I was supposed to be painting all my chair bolts dull white.


Looks like it could have been fashionable at one time.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29644579@ ... 9/sizes/k/

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Dave Holt
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:07 pm

Not painted white but brand new galvanised (silver grey) finish in my view.
Dave.

Porcy Mane
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby Porcy Mane » Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:08 pm

Dave Holt wrote:Not painted white but brand new galvanised (silver grey) finish in my view.


Leamsline023-©PwDEditSm.jpg


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JFS
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:58 pm

charliemiller77 wrote:Just a progress photo on the frame itself.
It goes together so precisely, if only all kits were so good !


You are too kind Charlie!

However, I see that you did not follow the method in the instructions! You are supposed to use the jigging designed-into the fret:-

Locking fret assy.jpg


Therefore when you assemble the locking to the frame, it should already look like this:-

Locking assy to frame 1.jpg


This ensures that the spacing and alignment are spot-on. Without that, you are on your own so take care!


Best Wishes,
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charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:01 am

[/quote]However, I see that you did not follow the method in the instructions! You are supposed to use the jigging designed-into the fret:-
[/quote]
8644804C-B0B8-48D6-BA26-9CF336939D45.jpeg

As you see I have studiously followed instructions. Just took a little diversion to see how it would fit the wooden blocks !
The jigging is perfect.
I have high hopes for a working frame before too long.
Charlie
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charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:50 pm

And here is my second attempt at getting the dog chart done.
84CE25AF-DCE6-43D1-8B20-D22A1AF040D6.jpeg

Any comments gratefully received.
I have lengthened some bridles to allow holding wires to perform their function.
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JFS
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:31 am

Hello Charlie,

Sorry not to have responded sooner - busy week!

Just looking through, all looks fine to me. My ony comment would be about the two half nibs. What you have is quite correct but these things can be a bit fiddly and there is an easy way to avoid them.

See if this makes sense to you - with apologies for a poor sketch

Butt - 3.jpg


Best Wishes,
Howard
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JFS
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:47 am

... oops - signed off too soon - there is one more possible simplification for you to consider.

Is there any reason why the 13 locks 6 EW could not go on the 13 Locks 5 Bridle? There is already a reverse port for the 4 locks (6,10) EW and the 13 locks 6EW has no other lock on it and so could be eliminated.

Best Wishes,

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:37 pm

Hello again Howard, thanks for looking at this, and sorry for my late reply, 3 granddaughters on a 4 day sleepover ! :shock:
I see what you have done , I think.
The small yellow square is attached to the nib below ( I'm assuming it is a short length of bridle), and so with 10 R then either 8 R would lock 9 10 via the brown double nib and bridle and push the yellow bridle to L 11, or 11 R would pull the yellow bridle along locking 8 and in doing so the short yellow bit pushes the brown bridle locking 9 10. You obviously have a lot more experience and tricks up your sleeve !!!
The skeleton nibs were causing me consternation.
I will redraw my plan, but also would move that to a different tray from the 5 6 7 double nibs to avoid the accidental butt lock. It could simply go down into tray 7 ( or G as I called it.)
I see how 13 L 6 either way can go on the 5 L 13 bridle and this frees up a little space, I already have a germ of an idea to see if I can economise any more because of this, but will see how it goes.
Steadily getting on with metalwork, there is a lot but it's still going well.
Much appreciate your help, Charlie

JFS
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby JFS » Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:58 am

charliemiller77 wrote:The small yellow square is attached to the nib below


Yes - and just to double check, I think of it this way: the yellow square is part of the yellow lock assembly and is arranged so that when the yellow bridle is pushed to the right (by 11 reversing) it butts onto the brown assembly pushing it rightwards which provides the R by 10, L 9EW lock. So you can think of it as a butt turned inside out. Equally, if 8 is reversed, it acts through the brown assembly in the usual way and a gap opens between the yellow square and the brown bridle. In practice, you can make these little bits and pieces up from any bit of scrap bridle or etch and when you see it physically it all makes sense.

When the locking gets big and complicated you need every possible dodge but - hopefully - you won't need anything beyond this! This stuff is a bit like building track - you can only gain experience by doing it, yet it is the kind of stuff most of us only want to do once or twice in a lifetime!

Hopefully - granddaughters permitting - you are ready to win the battle!

Best Wishes,

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:44 pm

It’s been over a week but I’m now happy with the following dog chart.
Managed to condense it a little , eg 6L 10,14 all on one bridle and by reversing the orientation of some nibs and swapping some to double nibs I’ve saved around 6 ports from the earlier version.
Also I’ve put the 5/6/7 butt lock on the rear tray , partly to see if I can and it saves an accidental butt lock with 8/9/10/11 group.
45A15BEC-CA15-4F7B-86F7-523F9886AE4C.jpeg

Must say it’s been fun learning all this.
It’s a shame I haven’t a clue how to start in cad drawing as I’m sure I could have saved some time , but doing it manually makes me think even more about how it’s all going to be constructed.
Thanks again for your interest and help.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:41 pm

Well done, that looks to match the locking table 100%,
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:15 pm

Thanks for looking at this so quickly.
Really pleased to have your confirmation!
Still loads of work to do , need some rain to keep me indoors.

JFS
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby JFS » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:00 pm

Looking good Charlie - I have certainly run out of ideas for tweaks. Time to get out the piercing saw ...

Best WIshes,

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:30 am

I’ve started , but need a good spell where I can get a rhythm going. Always find the ambiance has to be correct for this sort of precision work.
It may be a while . .
Great having the encouragement though.

charliemiller77
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Re: Hartleyburn Colliery

Postby charliemiller77 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:03 pm

I’m now at the stage of painting the frame and levers. Decided to mask them and spray etch primer.
Just wondering about number plates for the levers. . Does anyone produce a set or would I have to get them custom etched?
F5584EAB-5F57-4F64-9B9B-8DCA8D9DDC22.jpeg
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