Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

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ginger_giant
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Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:44 am

While building the baseboards for my new project I've also been putting more thought into the signal box diagram and how the entry/exit from the engine will be controlled. I think I'm getting close to a prototypical signal box diagram but I’ve now hit a bit of a brick wall and need some advice to clarify where I'm at. Also, I need some advice on how the exit from the shed via the Turntable Road onto the down main line will be controlled.

My current thoughts
1) Shed staff will need to have control through turnouts S1 & S2 that give access from the Reception/Head Shunt road to the Running Shed roads 3, 4, & 5.
2) The Signal box will need total control of the exit (turnout 24) so that no engine is allowed across the Up Main Line without being given permission.

Rospeath Lane v15 signal box & Shed ground frame diagram.jpg


The dashed lines are just an idea at the moment and would be an exit from off-scene exchange sidings.

The problems I’m seeing are:
1) Would there be a ground frame for the shed staff to operate the turnouts in this area which would also have interlocking so that Turnout 24 could not be set for exit unless S1 & S2 turnouts were set so no engine could cross the turntable to down mainline when a loco is exiting the shed?
2) Would there be a facing point lock on Turnout 24 operated by the signal box or Shed Ground Frame?
3) Or dare I even think that I might be overthinking this? The Signal box is directly opposite this set of turnouts so would the movements be handled with hand signals and a couple of ground signals with a modicum of common sense by the shed staff/engine crew?

I'll be using the Societies lever frame to control turnouts and signals. My hope/intention is to eventually add interlocking to the fame, either mechanical or electronic but this is a long way off. First I need to get the track built and installed along with a correct signal box diagram.
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Noel
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:54 pm

ginger_giant wrote:1) Would there be a ground frame for the shed staff to operate the turnouts in this area which would also have interlocking so that Turnout 24 could not be set for exit unless S1 & S2 turnouts were set so no engine could cross the turntable to down mainline when a loco is exiting the shed?
2) Would there be a facing point lock on Turnout 24 operated by the signal box or Shed Ground Frame?
3) Or dare I even think that I might be overthinking this? The Signal box is directly opposite this set of turnouts so would the movements be handled with hand signals and a couple of ground signals with a modicum of common sense by the shed staff/engine crew?


My take on this is
1) There would be no shed ground frame - points would all be hand levers. S3 to the right should be moved to the left of S2, and be controlled from the box. Possible conflicts of movement in the shed area would be addressed by loco crews moving slowly and paying attention. It didn't always work, but seems to have been an accepted hazard.
2) Possibly, but it would not be a legal requirement and, again given the low speed of movements in that area, unlikely, I feel.
3) There is a legal requirement for interlocking of points by which any movement might foul running lines, which therefore means 24 must be interlocked and controlled by the box [as must 17]. S3 to the left should be replaced by a second disc above 16, to control entry to the shed [necessary to avoid conflict with a movement from the down main via points 15].

I would question the need for points 11 [why would a down train need to access the up loop?], but if present, they will require a third signal on the bracket for 28 & 29. Another question applies to the exit signals 4 & 6 from the down loop to the up main; given the existence of 13 & 14, all that is needed is a single dummy, as 3 will keep all movements within station limits unless cleared. I presume 5 is to control exit from the Up loop & sidings? If so it must be before points 7, as should 2 [otherwise there is no control on the main if 5 is cleared], but on a separate post to 5.
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Noel

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:08 pm

Is this a prototype numbering plan or one you have developed? Just that I would not expect the slip to be set like that, but some prototypes were unusual! And I can see some benefit if moves on and off the turntable are significantly more frequent than use of the trailing srossover via the slip.
I don't see a benefit in the ground frame, I would leave S1 and S2 as hand points with 16 as a red shunt, the left hand S3 abolished and the right hand S3 worked from the box, perhaps as 25. Opposing locking would be omitted from 16 and 25 so they could be cleared together for shunting. (Just as you have with S3).
16 would lock 24 and rel by 17 (As well as other things)
25 would lock 24.
24 would not have an FPL, its not in a passenger line, just acting as a trap.
I don't see why 5 and 6 are on brackets if they are both meant to be shunt ahead signals, 5 just gets you behind 23 to do a shunt, 6 is presumably released by 13 or 14 to either go behind 23 or go to the turntable. 4 and 6 could probably just be a shunt disc. As it stands how do you pass it to go into the sidings?
Maybe some esoteric GWR specialties here I'm not au fait with.
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Tim V
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:03 pm

Standard GWR practice would see 15/20 as a crossover, with 20/24 as another crossover. But FPL 25? Not needed. And where are the two routes 13/14? I can only see one route there into the yard. If you were pulling 13 off to run along the up main, where is the next signal? Not sure about bracket 4/6, a ground signal would do there.

Agree the shed would not have a ground frame, just hand levers.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:27 pm

Tim V wrote:Standard GWR practice would see 15/20 as a crossover, with 20/24 as another crossover.
Yes, that's how I would do it, hence my first comment.
But FPL 25? Not needed. And where are the two routes 13/14? I can only see one route there into the yard. If you were pulling 13 off to run along the up main, where is the next signal?
A route on to the up main is to be expected on a trailing crossover, 13 leads up to 3, perfectly fine.
Not sure about bracket 4/6, a ground signal would do there.

So three of us agreed on that bit.
I did not comment first time on the up loop connection, but since Noel has I will now.
Firsly if the facing access from the down is needed, and I agree with Noel that its not#, the slip arrangement here would be the usual of two crossobers, not the two points and a slip arrangement. Signal 2 has to move back to protect the loop exit and a signal is needed for the loop exit. Signal 5 is better abolished, with or without the loop as for shunt moves to the up main 2 can be pulled off with 3 at stop.
#Facing access into the up loop effectively makes it a bi-directional line with a need for some single line working facilities, starts to get complex.
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Keith
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:53 pm

I wouldn't expect a route the wrong direction on the Up main. Here is Melksham, sorry it's in B&W.
Melksham Diagram at Didcot 2 May 82 OM1 HP5 228- (1).jpg

And here is Limpley Stoke.
Limpley Stoke (1).JPG
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:09 pm

He doesn't have a route wrong direction on the Up main, 13 reads in the up direction towards signal 3 which would be the section signal.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:52 pm

Sorry, yes it does if you read it that way. It just isn't GWR practice!
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:10 pm

Tim,
Both the diagrams you put up have shunt signals reading over trailing crossovers up to the section signals, which bit is not GWR? Having two discs?
14 reads to the turntable, 13 to the up as there are two possible routes over the crossover. having one disc read either way is an option usually preferred by modellers as much easier to make singles than doubles if you want them to work.
31 at Melksham has a similar pair of routes with a single disc, but then has a second disc for a different route apparently worked by the same lever which is an interesting one, must have run out of levers.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:57 pm

The unusual bit is the double disc. Taking Melksham, 31 for 30 reads to down main or siding. Not a double disc. Limpley Stoke 23 reads to down goods running loop and down siding, again not a double disc.

Remember, GWR practice would be for a white light instead of a red light in ground discs. This can be passed on the route the disc does not apply to. Later WR practice might be to substitute a yellow disc, but that is outside my period of interest!

And the selected discs? Here's some more of Limpley stoke. Note Disc 23!
Limpley Stoke (2).JPG
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:05 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:31 at Melksham has a similar pair of routes with a single disc, but then has a second disc for a different route apparently worked by the same lever which is an interesting one, must have run out of levers.


In the case of situations such as 31, where the locking would basically be the same, as they allow backing movements starting from essentially the same location, some GW frames could select which of the two 31 discs was pulled by the lever, depending on which of the points 30 or 33 had been set for the diverging road. This is apparently one of those, since the word "selected" is present with two arrows pointing to both no. 31. 23 is the same at Limpley Stoke.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:45 pm

Many thanks for all your replies. As you may well have gleaned from this attempt this is my first layout where I've had to think about a signal box diagram. I've printed out this thread so I can digest the information and product a version 2 which I hope to post tomorrow. In the meantime, I've attached the full track plan as it stands at the moment just in case it might help with the discussions.

Rospeath Lane v15-2.jpg


The dashed lines on the signal box diagram are only an afterthought but one I included in case it becomes reality and I need to add spares on the lever frame for the future.

Regards
Ian
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:19 pm

Hi Ian,

I am not going to get involved with the discussion about GWR ground disc signalling practice - but it strikes me, looking at your track plan even more than the signal box diagram, that the "scissors crossover" arrangement you have to allow the trailing access from both the up and down lines just doesn't feel that prototypical to me. If you do still want to be able to run from the reception siding/headshunt out onto the up main and vice versa, rather than as drawn, why not just have a separate connection at the fan for the running shed that links across to the up? Would be easier for you to build and makes the eventual interlocking less complex too (and for the same reason, the GWR would have tried to do something simpler like this in real life I would suggest).

I am quite prepared to be shot down now, with numerous examples of where your plan was used in real life...

But it's a fascinating project you have there - I enjoyed scrolling through your blog earlier learning more about it.

All the best

Neil

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am

Neil Smith wrote:but it strikes me, looking at your track plan even more than the signal box diagram, that the "scissors crossover" arrangement you have to allow the trailing access from both the up and down lines just doesn't feel that prototypical to me.


Having seen the full trackplan, I agree entirely. All that is necessary is an exit from the headshunt/reception siding to the Up Main plus a trailing crossover. Far simpler, and therefore far cheaper, both to build and maintain [in prototype terms - cost was always a consideration with railway companies], and it will achieve all that is necessary. The other requirement is for a run round somewhere in the shed area so that the shed pilot can run round wagons from the rear sidings in order to propel them to the coal stage or ash road and vice-versa without troubling the signalman and blocking the main line.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:23 am

Neil Smith wrote:Hi Ian,

.....looking at your track plan even more than the signal box diagram, that the "scissors crossover" arrangement you have to allow the trailing access from both the up and down lines just doesn't feel that prototypical to me. If you do still want to be able to run from the reception siding/headshunt out onto the up main and vice versa, rather than as drawn, why not just have a separate connection at the fan for the running shed that links across to the up? Would be easier for you to build and makes the eventual interlocking less complex too (and for the same reason, the GWR would have tried to do something simpler like this in real life I would suggest).

But it's a fascinating project you have there - I enjoyed scrolling through your blog earlier learning more about it.

All the best

Neil


Thank you Neil for taking the time to scroll through the blog it's a type of project I've been wanting to build for some time.

The "scissors crossover" is, I agree, a tad unprototypical. I ended up with this configuration due to the space I had available being recently reduced by five feet. Also the creation of the "scissors crossover" reduces the number of reversals a loco would need to do when exiting the shed towards Marazion. I was also trying to keep the operation of the track plan the same as I had before bearing in mind the different track levels with the rising gradient of the mainline. I'll take a look to see if I can modify the track plan, as you say a simplified track plan may help with the signal diagram.

This may not be relevant in this thread but my thoughts on the operation of the shed are:
1) Engines arrive on the arrival road, the engine crew would hand over to shed staff and then log off at the Shed Office/Bothy.
2) Shed staff would service the engine via, Ash pit, Coaling stage, Turntable (turning the loco if required).
3) If this is the locos home shed it may go into the Running Shed or wait to depart on its next duty along the turntable road.
4) If the loco is a visiting loco and booked for a return working that day it may wait for its crew on the turntable road or go onto either shed roads 1 or 2.
5) I've envisaged that shed roads 3, 4 & 5 would be used mainly for locos requiring longer time on shed. Possibly road 4 used for boiler washouts.
(Shed roads are numbered top to bottom on the plan, left to right when viewing the shed from the front, road 5 being external to the shed)

Cheers Ian

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:25 am

Noel wrote:
Neil Smith wrote:but it strikes me, looking at your track plan even more than the signal box diagram, that the "scissors crossover" arrangement you have to allow the trailing access from both the up and down lines just doesn't feel that prototypical to me.


Having seen the full trackplan, I agree entirely. All that is necessary is an exit from the headshunt/reception siding to the Up Main plus a trailing crossover. Far simpler, and therefore far cheaper, both to build and maintain [in prototype terms - cost was always a consideration with railway companies], and it will achieve all that is necessary. The other requirement is for a run round somewhere in the shed area so that the shed pilot can run round wagons from the rear sidings in order to propel them to the coal stage or ash road and vice-versa without troubling the signalman and blocking the main line.


Thanks Noel

I'll take a look and post a revised plan later. Just wish I'd asked these question before starting on cutting timber. :x

Cheers
Ian

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:06 am

Below are the revised track plan and signal box diagrams. It's getting a bit late in the evening but I think I have understood all the suggestions/advice correctly. I Must admit that the simplified track plan looks better, more prototypical.

Rospeath Lane v18.jpg

Using the term Loop's showed my naivety as my thoughts are they would be arrival/departure roads for good yards/exchange siding on either side of the mainline. The Templot plane needs a little TLC, timbers shoving, turnouts, and plan track checking but thought I better find out if I'm on the right track...

Rospeath Lane v18 signal box diagram.jpg

One question is should I allow for fictional Detonators on the Lever Frame?

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Ian
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:14 am

ginger_giant wrote:Below are the revised track plan and signal box diagrams. It's getting a bit late in the evening but I think I have understood all the suggestions/advice correctly. I Must admit that the simplified track plan looks better, more prototypical.


Ian that does look a lot better from the PWay side of things.

Two questions for the GW signalling experts:

1. Would the down signal levers have been numbered with 20, 19 and *18* as the distant, home and starter, with 17 (or another lower number) on the bracket for turning into the loop (i.e. at least swap the numbering for 17 and 18)? The Limpley Stoke diagrams that Tim posted suggest this would be the case if you look at the bracket signal there.

2. I am not at all sure that you are right to allocate 11 to both ends of the trailing crossover, and same for 13 for going into and out of the shed yard. I appreciate Tim's point about white light ground discs which only apply to a certain route, to minimise the number of dolls, but you could have an engine arriving from Penzance to go on shed stopped at 3 and waiting to reverse, and one waiting in the shed headshunt waiting to go off shed, and pulling 13 would give them both permission to move.....
You have spare levers, so suggest the down facing elements of the above pair could be your 15 and 16.

3. Detonators. Why fictional if this is "getting it all right"??! :twisted: (Actually, and half seriously, aside from the "fun" of creating working det placers, there is another alternative which is that the det levers could be linked to a sound card activated when a wheel passes over the relevent spot?)


4. Was just about to send and another thought struck me. Would you ever want a loco to come off shed, or a train to arrive on the Up, and reverse into your possible North Yard sidings? Because if so, you will need to signal and interlock that, from the up side of points 14 I would have thought?

All the best

Neil

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:58 am

Neil Smith wrote:2. I am not at all sure that you are right to allocate 11 to both ends of the trailing crossover, and same for 13 for going into and out of the shed yard. I appreciate Tim's point about white light ground discs which only apply to a certain route, to minimise the number of dolls, but you could have an engine arriving from Penzance to go on shed stopped at 3 and waiting to reverse, and one waiting in the shed headshunt waiting to go off shed, and pulling 13 would give them both permission to move.....
You have spare levers, so suggest the down facing elements of the above pair could be your 15 and 16.


I don't disagree with your analysis, but I think there is a further problem here, which is that there should be exit signal(s) controlled from the box at the two exits from the shed area into the headshunt [it could be one signal reading to both exit roads], or else departing locos can attempt to access the headshunt with points set against them and a loco on its way in from the main. The dummy on the headshunt would then need to be double or treble to control entrance to the shed. Perhaps it would be more convenient to move the crossover to the main leftwards, so that it is to the left of both shed access points?

Neil Smith wrote:Was just about to send and another thought struck me. Would you ever want a loco to come off shed, or a train to arrive on the Up, and reverse into your possible North Yard sidings? Because if so, you will need to signal and interlock that, from the up side of points 14 I would have thought?


Given that the loops have been recategorised as the yard arrival/departure roads, and the station beyond them is a terminus, yards on both sides of the line become rather improbable [Penzance in reality had one yard on the up side]. I would expect a single yard, with separate arrival and departure roads accessed by crossovers off the main. Apart from light engine moves which you have identified this is actually operationally very unlikely to be a problem; where would such an up train come from? The answer for light engines might be to extend the headshunt to the left to provide loco access direct to the yard [not via the main], which is what existed in a different form at Ponsandane.
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Noel

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:16 am

Noel wrote:Given that the loops have been recategorised as the yard arrival/departure roads, and the station beyond them is a terminus, yards on both sides of the line become rather improbable [Penzance in reality had one yard on the up side]. I would expect a single yard, with separate arrival and departure roads accessed by crossovers off the main. Apart from light engine moves which you have identified this is actually operationally very unlikely to be a problem; where would such an up train come from? The answer for light engines might be to extend the headshunt to the left to provide loco access direct to the yard [not via the main], which is what existed in a different form at Ponsandane.


Having read the blog, I know that history is being rewritten with a branch beyond Penzance into the far west, leaving the mainline from around this point. I must admit I was slightly unclear of the bigger suggested layout from the blog as to where the junction would be, but the reason I wrote what I had was that if there was goods traffic coming off the branch, and there was only trailing access into the North yard, then there would need to be provision for that. I take your point Noel that it's perhaps unlikely to have two yards, and that without the branch all there is in the down direction is the terminus at Penzance..

All the best

Neil

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:16 pm

Neil Smith wrote: I am not at all sure that you are right to allocate 11 to both ends of the trailing crossover, and same for 13 for going into and out of the shed yard.

Indeed this is a no-no, setting up a head on collision on the main lines. Each of those 4 shunts should have its own lever, usually either side of the crossover, see Melksham for examples,so better numbering here would be;
11, shunt to up main.
12 crossover down to up.
13, shunt to down main,
14, shunt to up main,
15, crossover loco to up,
16, shunt to headshunt.
Lever 7 appears to be available for the shunt back over 6, which you do need, I think.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:30 pm

Think I've opened a can of worms tying to build the fictitious yards and station beyond the road bridge. I feel I'll need to put more meat on the to help decide the track layout towards Marazion even though I can't envisage that I'll have the opportunity to build it. I suppose this is one problem of building a fictitious "what might have been" rather than an actual but at least I am learning a lot and beginning to understand the whys and wherefores.

My current back story for this project can be found here https://rospeathlane.blogspot.com/p/project-back-story.html. I'll create a map to show where the proposed junction might have been and the route of the branch.

In the meantime, I think after following all your suggestions the track on the main two boards is now OK. It also looks like the profiles I've already cut for these boards are OK as well.

grovenor-2685 wrote:Indeed this is a no-no, setting up a head on collision on the main lines. Each of those 4 shunts should have its own lever, usually either side of the crossover, see Melksham for examples,so better numbering here would be;
11, shunt to up main.
12 crossover down to up.
13, shunt to down main,
14, shunt to up main,
15, crossover loco to up,
16, shunt to headshunt.
Lever 7 appears to be available for the shunt back over 6, which you do need, I think.


I'll amend the signal diagram and post it later.

Many thanks for all the comments so far, all very much appreciated and very positive.

Regards
Ian

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Will L » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:22 pm

Noel wrote:... The other requirement is for a run round somewhere in the shed area so that the shed pilot can run round wagons from the rear sidings in order to propel them to the coal stage or ash road and vice-versa without troubling the signalman and blocking the main line.

Although I know nothing of GWR practice, I think Noel had a, hum, point here. Does converting the spur to the wheel drop into a slip (singe or double) and connecting it too the siding beside the coal/turntable entry road do the trick, and seem prototypically plausible?

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:37 pm

That could be done by a few choice gradients, if the reception road (for example) was on a rising gradient, the wagons would just roll past the engine. By the way I'm not saying this is what would have been done.

I've seen yards which were entirely worked by gravity, locos just delivered and collected wagons.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:52 pm

Will L wrote:
Noel wrote:... The other requirement is for a run round somewhere in the shed area so that the shed pilot can run round wagons from the rear sidings in order to propel them to the coal stage or ash road and vice-versa without troubling the signalman and blocking the main line.

Although I know nothing of GWR practice, I think Noel had a, hum, point here. Does converting the spur to the wheel drop into a slip (singe or double) and connecting it too the siding beside the coal/turntable entry road do the trick, and seem prototypically plausible?

The siding between the coaling stage road and turntable road is used for ash wagons. This was a typical GWR layout. I've based the track plan heavily on Leamington Spa with only minor modifications.
post-9751-0-70201500-1424304868.jpg

I'm presuming moving wagons between the coal stack either used two shed pilots or used the coaling stage coal and turntable to run around the wagons. Confirmation on how this manoeuvre took place would be appreciated if anyone does know?

Cheer
Ian
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