Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

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Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:29 pm

Your solution looks OK.

Thank you Keith. That is what I was hoping to hear. :D
Tony

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:05 am

I am sure you will spot further issues - please feel free to let me know.


Howard,
Forgive me, I used this quote just to get your attention.
I rather suspect that this is obvious but I just wanted to check something on Conditional Locks that I couldn't find (missed) in the instructions.
The nibs are nominally the same thickness as the tappets. Therefore, the nibs that are to be effected by the swinging bit (?) attached to the tappet, do not actually come into contact with it. I can't tell from your photos but I assume that the nibs need to be doubled in thickness for it to work.
I think that I can see in your images that the small circle in the fret is sweated onto the front of the dangly bit.
Is this right or am I missing something?
Thanks again,
Tony

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:20 am

Tonycardall wrote:The nibs are nominally the same thickness as the tappets. Therefore, the nibs that are to be effected by the swinging bit (?) attached to the tappet, do not actually come into contact with it. I can't tell from your photos but I assume that the nibs need to be doubled in thickness for it to work.
I think that I can see in your images that the small circle in the fret is sweated onto the front of the dangly bit.

Tony


Exactly that.

Just to add, that - once you are happy with your scheme - the next stage is to think about exactly how it will be translated into metal - for example - which bridles need to go on the front / back, which nibs need to be skeleton nibs (where two must work back to back in dependently on adjacent tappets), etc etc.
It might be that at this stage you spot something that you can't physically make and you have to go back a stage - but it is unlikely as you have a good grasp of how it fits together I think.

Best Wishes,

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 am

the next stage is to think about exactly how it will be translated into metal


Something that I had not spotted at the planning stage and, in fairness, unless you've done this before you are unlikely to notice, is that you cannot easily place a single, double ended nib, immediately above or below a conditional lock. See levers 13 and 14 in trays 2 and 3. Unless you know previously that a conditional lock requires the nibs to be double thickness to interact with the pendulous dangly thing (I really should learn the terminology) then you will not immediately appreciate that you cannot insert a retaining wire to hold in place the short piece of bridle that is needed to guide the nib. There are obvious means of getting around it, like putting the short nib at the rear or using a longer guide bridle if there is sufficient space.
It was at this point that I referred back to Howard's pictures in this subject and appreciated the complexity and novel practices in his locking frame. When looking at them before I suppose I couldn't see the wood for the trees but as one gains experience it becomes a bit clearer just what incredible work is going on with his frames.

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:50 pm

Tonycardall wrote:Something that I had not spotted at the planning stage and, in fairness, unless you've done this before you are unlikely to notice, is that you cannot easily place a single, double ended nib, immediately above or below a conditional lock.


It is true that the swinging bits do get in the way and you have to think aroud them a bit, but I am not sure I can see any problem with how you had it laid out - only the tray immediately above the conditional lock is really affected, and even then you can use the rear channels or make "bridges" in bridles to "oversail" the swinger. Equally, you are right that the loose nibs do need support when they are not sat in the midst of four other bridles and it is better to err on the side of making the guide bridles longer rather than shorter.

I think the way you have approached this whole job is exactly right (and is a good pointer for anyone following behind) - by doing the "easy" bits of metal work in parallel with the design, you get a good feel for the practicalities and this helps you to understand how to make things work, and how to create a design which is easiest to make. Very well done!


Best wishes,

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:58 am

I am not sure I can see any problem

OK, I've been found out. Confession time. I'm afraid that I have deviated from the instructions. Not because I think I know better but because I am not very confident about my abilities. I have previously mentioned my inability to use a soldering iron. In fact, other than making electrical connections, prior to starting on the lever frame I had only tried one soldering project. I bought a nice little metal wagon kit and really enjoyed putting it together until I put one piece in the wrong place. When attempting to unsolder the part I held the iron in place too long and ended up with a pile of metal with many of the pieces attached at all sorts of jaunty angles. It went in the bin!
My concern was that I would spend tens of hours working on the locking mechanism only to find that it wouldn't work when I attached the lever frame to the locking frame. I will admit that there has been no point when I have been confident that I would end up with a working frame. (until now!!!!) So ... instead of making up a jig in which to assemble the locking mechanism, I attached the lever frame and inserted the levers prior to starting on the tappets and bridles. This meant that I could be confident that everything would work when completed or abandon the locking project and just use the lever frame. I hope this is clear even if it doesn't make any sense. If you see what I mean.
Therefore, instead of working with the trays lying horizontally I have had the frame propped up at 45 degrees. At such an angle I've needed to fit the guide wires across all of the trays, the full height of the frame with a 90 degree bend at the top to stop them from dropping through. Hence my comment about the conditional locking nibs getting in the way of the guide wires.
Anyway, it did actually work for me as, fortunately, my locking design is reasonably simple and hasn't needed the convoluted and imaginative solutions that are used in Howard's frame.
At the time of typing this I have two bridles to make to complete the mechanism. Once it is complete I will post a picture if only so that members who have aspirations to make a locking frame will realise that, if I can get it to work, anyone can!
Tony

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:48 am

[quote="Tonycardall" When attempting to unsolder the part I held the iron in place too long and ended up with a pile of metal with many of the pieces attached at all sorts of jaunty angles. [/quote]

Hi Tony,

I had the same problem during the learning process. I now find a liberal array of heat sinks around the part to be unsoldered does the trick. :thumb
Tim Lee

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:15 pm

I have had a few days away from metalworking and now return afresh and thought that it might be appropriate to post an update. This is not intended to be in any way instructional, I wouldn't presume. It is more of a 'note to self'.
I mentioned before that I only had a couple of bridles to make up before tidying up and fitting the final assembly bits and bobs to make it all rigid.
Hmm... What I hadn't appreciated is that, although I had left the longer bridles until last deliberately as I imagined they would be a little more challenging to fit, I hadn't thought about the fact that I had placed my longest bridle runs in the same trays and therefore, there is quite a bit of interaction between those runs and resultant friction and fighting for space.
Therefore, the need for accuracy and cleaning and polishing of nibs and bridles becomes even more important. For example, I wasn't too concerned with polishing the exposed parts of the nibs in the way that one sees in Howard's pictures of his excellent work. So long as they work, that's good enough for me. However, when two bridles occupy the same tray they need to have polished surfaces to rub against and the slightest amount of solder on the face will cause things to lock up. Easily fixed but worth taking time over.
Another problem I had was with skeleton nibs. They are tiny and delicate. The first couple I did I polished the parts on the etch and then removed them, folded them over tightly, placed them on the bridle and, using masses of flux, soldered them in place, causing solder to also run between the two halves to make them nice and strong. It worked OK but I felt it was a bit of a novice way of doing things.
On my final run I need four skeleton nibs and so decided that for a ham-fisted and cack-handed modeller like me I was better off looking for a more professional (?) approach. What I did was to snip off one etch tag on each pair of nibs. Then I fold them and flooded them with flux and soldered the two sides together whilst on the etch. They came out much better aligned and it was easier to solder them to the bridle using a 1mm wire dowel to ensure they went into the correct position.
Speaking of which, the alignment of all nibs is crucial but skeleton nibs (to me at least) looked to be at the wrong angle every time I did one. There is something about it being a cut down version of a full nib they makes the shape look wrong when you line it up for soldering. it isn't, it just looks that way.
Now my usual confessions of Cardall style cock-ups!
Way back at the start of this project I mentioned that, before waiting to get everything prepared and long before I had a workable plan for the locking mechanism, I made up a couple of locks that were self contained onto single 5 lever frame sections. I was desperate to see something work and as mentioned before, I am impatient. When I came to work up the design, (you will notice that I failed to credit Howard and Keith there), I failed to take any notice of the fact that some parts where already made and working.
If you are interested I'll insert the locking chart here ...
SRH Locking Chart - V 2e - 170120.pptx

So, in tray 8 I had 2 and 4 release 1 but upside down. IE the bridle at the top. I had also built the bridle coloured red and so the green one had no choice than to go where shown. But the nib on 4 of 2 & 4 release 1 gets in the way. It wasn't too much of challenge to get around as I merely transferred it to behind the tappets but on a more complex table it could have caused real problems at this late stage.
Finally, the more serious mistake. I am nearing the end and am making the final bridle. Weeks of work!!!! I've just found that lever 27 is swinging loose having no effect whatsoever on it's tappet. What I think has happened is that I've failed to adequately solder in the lever drive pin! yes I know Howard, Carr's brown flux!
I have the most awful feeling that everything is going to have to be dismantled to access it!
OK, another confession, that last mentioned is the real reason for me taking a break and typing up this post! :evil:
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JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:32 pm

Tonycardall wrote:I have the most awful feeling that everything is going to have to be dismantled to access it!


That should not be necessary at all - assuming you did as suggested(!) and divided the pivot shaft into 5-lever lengths. If so, then "all" you have to do is to work each length of rod sideways, using pliers, into the adjacent unit of five levers until you can open up a gap under lever 27. You should then just be able to lift it out without disturbing any other levers. Of course, since lever 27 is in the second last of the groups of 5, only those two are affected in this case - piece of cake really!

Of course, I have never had to do such a thing myself ... well perhaps once or twice ... Just think it it were lever 33 in a 70 lever frame... But even then, it can be done and this was one of the main faults with the MkI frame that I wanted to correct.

If you are sure that is the cause of course ...

I wonder if I should read into your post that you did not use the brown flux? That being the case.. well not sure I could say anything that you have not already said to yourself really ... :?

Good luck ...

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 am

assuming you did as suggested(!) and divided the pivot shaft into 5-lever lengths

Yes Howard, I did in fact use separate 5 lever lengths of brass rod BUT, although I did my best to ensure that everything is nicely lined up accurately, the slightest smidgen of misalignment means that I am unable to push the rod through from one frame to the next. To the naked eye it looks perfectly aligned but clearly can't be. Of course, it might have been easier if I had not placed the frame nicely into a position where it is boxed in on three sides making access all but impossible. To add to the challenge the tops of the levers are just over 10" below the block shelf so it is difficult to get my head in to see what I am doing. Why am I admitting all of this?
IMG_3173.jpg

Try to see past the mess of building!
This is a significant learning curve. It is my first model railway and if I had the strength to start again I would do so much differently.
I have tried forcing the rod out with pliers but the limited amount of room means that I cannot get enough purchase. I then used a drill to rough up the surface and tried forcing it with a screwdriver. Still no success. Regrettably, I think that I now have to remove all of the micro switches to give me access to the frame screws, take the frame out and get a bit better access.
To get at the screws I shall probably have to remove the bridles too. Ah well!
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Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:31 pm

and there you have it.
IMG_3174.JPG
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JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:40 pm

Well done! Hope it was not too much of a trial.

Time for the Brown flux!

Be sure to get it good and hot - you should see the flux bubbling (it does not boil) and the a bead of solder should appear. Once it has cooled down, nothing will shift it ...

Just as a suggestion to others following in your footsteps, I would mention that the microswitches should be wired through 25-way plugs and sockets so that you can always easily disconnect the frame from the layout. Then, the microswitches can be released in their units of five and that should allow access to the pivot rods to get them out. As you say it is impossible to align all the frame units perfectly, so it can be a fight to slide them from onr unit to the next, but just lossening the screws half a turn is usually enough to do the job.

Hope that helps for next time ...

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:23 am

Time for the Brown flux!

Did I mention my impatience? So, at 13.00 on Friday I ordered Carrs Brown flux from Phoenix Paints and paid an extra £9.95 for next working day delivery. Now I think that we've already established that I don't read instructions too closely. So, after placing the order I noticed that the latest for an order to go out on a Friday is 11.00! So I've paid c£24.00 for flux that won't arrive until next Tuesday at the earliest. I am not criticising Phoenix, it was my own fault for rushing the order and not reading all of the details.
OK, so (take a deep breath Howard) I used some flux that I found in my soldering cupboard.
It seems to have done the job really well but I doubt that it was the right stuff to use.
flux.JPG

The good news is that the locking mechanism is now complete, not actually finished but all of the parts are made.
Now the testing starts in earnest. Each bridle works well in isolation but I still have some stiffness now that every part is in place. Each lock needs to be tested with everything in place and each cause of stiffness investigated and resolved.
I found a couple of bridles to be not quite accurately aligned and this was sorted out with a few strokes of the file.
You need to be quite rigorous about checking each lock as well as releases because, as an example, my 8 releases 7 and 9 worked beautifully but I discovered that I could quite easily force 7 reverse with 9 reversed. I made up some new nibs and checked the stub locking but eventually decided to remake the tappet as it simply wasn't accurate enough.
As I now had a bit more experience and because the locking plan was complete with all of the pieces made, I was confident about where the ports should be. Therefore, instead of following the instructions, (sorry Howard), I felt that I could mark up and cut out the ports BEFORE soldering the sides together. This meant that it was a breeze to follow the etched marks on the tappet and resulted in much more accurate ports. I then sweated the sides together and tidied up. It now works perfectly.
So now I intend to continue with thorough testing of all locks using the locking chart to ensure that each prescribed lock/release works smoothly before finalising the frame a returning it to it's working position on my railway.
I'll put a couple of aspirins in the post Howard. :)
Tony
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Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:23 pm

A short post to explain a little trick I found. I was absolutely stuck with a stiffness that, at first, I couldn't resolve. I was lucky to spot it at this stage because it only occurred when attempting to reverse 13 AFTER reversing both 4 and 10.
13 diagram section.JPG

You can see that if 4 has been reversed and returned to normal without any other levers being altered and similarly for 10, then the nibs either side of 13 in tray 2 are inside their respective ports. if then, having reversed 11 to release it, one attempts to reverse 13 it has to simultaneously push nibs each side out of the ports. This should be fine but there is downward force which results in pressing the two bridles (Pink and Blue on my chart) against each other and, in my case, causing sufficient friction that it binds up.
There is something in the instructions about using pins in the central holes in adjacent nibs to keep the bridles apart. I don't think that this would work on mine as there are no full sized nibs in close enough vicinity and, in any event, I didn't want to take it all apart again. However, I came up with a simple if unorthodox remedy.
Lever 13 .png

I took a short length of spare bridle, folded the end double and bent it at 90 degrees and then, having inserted the doubled end in between the offending bridles I soldered it to the tray front.
It has gone from frustratingly impossible to move to as smooth as you could wish for.
SO, now that I've changed things I'll carry out a further full test of every lock and then advise further on progress.
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Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:16 pm

a liberal array of heat sinks

Thorough checking showed that, although 4 locks points 20, it's associated disc 21 was free to move. This was covered in the chart but, upon examination, I found that the nib was slightly out of square.So the tappet was not locked. It only needed to be heated up with the soldering iron and shifted slightly so that it was at 90 degrees to the bridle. With Ian's words ringing in my ear I placed heat sinks all around the nib to be worked upon and had no problems. Thanks for the reminder Ian.
I am at present returning the frame to it's original position. I am tempted to mount it a couple of inches higher to bring it into line with the baseboard. This would have the significant benefit of giving me easy access to the rear of the frame. However, aesthetically, I think it looks better sunk into the baseboard sides so that the top of the frame is level with the top of the baseboard. Now that I've typed that I can see the argument against it as in the box the operating floor would be raised. I'm going to have to think about that but for now, it goes back where originally planned. :?

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:41 pm

A Recap
So here we are. It isn't pretty but it is elegant, if that makes sense and boy does it work well(?)!
Complete.JPG


I guess that this could be the last post on this subject and so I'm going to do a quick recap/review.
I think that the first time that I was aware that anyone was mad enough to try to make an authentic locking frame was at the Derby located AGM in 2015. Howard Bolton's Minories. I thought that it was terrific but not something that I could realistically aspire to. Nonetheless, when moving house in 2017 and finding that I had room at last to start on a 'proper' model I decided that I would use the society lever frame and then, at some time in the future, perhaps once my railway was up and running and I had little else to do, I might just have a go at playing about with a locking mechanism.
I chance conversation with Danny Cockling at Warley last year had me investigating how to work out the mechanism for a locking frame. Impatience once again got the better of me and I was off and running. The rest of the story is on the foregoing pages.

Here we are a mere couple of months later and I have a fully functioning, mechanically locking lever frame.
I've made lots of mistakes along the way but with the encouragement and assistance from some key contributors all is now well.

I honestly would fully recommend the lever frames and locking mechanism to anyone modelling a railway with mechanical signalling. In fact, I don't know how or why anyone would go down any other route. The pleasure I get (already) from pulling a lever and finding it won't move and then discovering that it is because the locking is working correctly, is just phenomenal.
If you are thinking about installing your own locking mechanism all I can say is, 'get on with it, you won't regret it', If someone with my total lack of practical skills can make one, anyone can.

Good luck to all!
Regards,
Tony
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Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:47 pm

Before anyone says anything about the guide wires, I haven't cut and tack soldered them yet as, with my usual lack of confidence, I want to use the frame for a while before committing it to any degree of permanence.

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:49 pm

Tonycardall wrote:There is something in the instructions about using pins in the central holes in adjacent nibs to keep the bridles apart. I don't think that this would work on mine as there are no full sized nibs in close enough vicinity and, in any event, I didn't want to take it all apart again. However, I came up with a simple if unorthodox remedy.


Hello Tony,

Well done there! Just to say it would be very simple job that did not need one or two unothordox solutions!

I would also mention that there are also some "dummy nibs" provided for this situation:-

Bridle guide.jpg


They can be fitted just the other side of the tappet in order to provide the necessary guidance but, as you say, you need to spot the need for them before you build the bridle - so thanks for sharing your experience to help others :thumb

Equally, I learn the hard way also sometimes, and if you have managed to get everything working without having to disassemble most of it at least once, then you have done very well! Once or twice I have had a largish pile of bridles and tappets in front on me along with a very uneasy feeling that I should have made some better notes before stripping it all down ...

Well done and best wishes,
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JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:57 pm

Tonycardall wrote:Before anyone says anything about the guide wires, I haven't cut and tack soldered them yet as, with my usual lack of confidence, I want to use the frame for a while before committing it to any degree of permanence.


Had you looked too closely at the Minories frame, you might have spotted that, even after 5 years, there are a bare minimum of guide wires and none of them are soldered! Nor are they on either of my other big frames! Truth is, I still can't believe it all works so well either!

Many thanks for the posts Tony, and I hope they will encourage others

Edit:- too much false modesty BTW - I think it looks GREAT!

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:29 pm

They can be fitted just the other side of the tappet in order to provide the necessary guidance

Ah yes! I see that now. The thing is that, of necessity, there are rather a lot of instructions. I almost wish that I was starting again from scratch. No, I'm not that mad! But one reads the instructions initially and, because you haven't yet made a start, not everything makes sense. It is only after making several parts and then rereading the instructions that the penny drops.
On a slightly off topic but loosely connected set of questions. (I know that this is cheeky but you may be able to aim me in the right direction)
1. Should my levers for ground signals have a white band on the red background?
2. Do you think that signals 14, 19 and 22 should be yellow? IE. authorised to pass without being cleared providing you are not taking a route that would require the signal to be cleared. I'm paraphrasing as I don't have a rule book to hand and I don't know if that method was used in those days.
3. Do you know where I would find a wiring diagram that would facilitate the distant signal located on the same post as signal 31 automatically reverting to 'On' when my section signal is replaced to danger? I'm using servos. I've seen it demonstrated on YouTube but there is no mention of how it is wired.
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Tony

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:49 pm

Do you know where I would find a wiring diagram that would facilitate the distant signal located on the same post as signal 31 automatically reverting to 'On' when my section signal is replaced to danger? I'm using servos. I've seen it demonstrated on YouTube but there is no mention of how it is wired.

Well now, that is going to depend on how the servos are operated, ie what are you using as a servo driver? And what is being used to control the distant.
With that knowledge suggestions can be made, a simple slot is not going to be difficult, worst case one relay.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:14 pm

a simple slot is not going to be difficult, worst case one relay.

Keith, For the section signal (31) and all signals on my Southam Road and Harbury frame, I am using MegaPoints Controllers servo controllers operated from my lever frame. The benefit being that the signal arms clear in two distinct movements as if the signaller was pulling, re positioning and then making the final pull and there is 'bounce incorporated into the arm returning to danger. To use a single servo would mean that the distant would clear each time the section signal is cleared and that would not be right. As you will know, it should be the case that the distant when pulled, will only clear if the section signal is also cleared and will automatically revert to 'On' when the section signal is returned to danger.
The distant will be worked by the operator working the fiddle yard. Obviously in my case he is representing the signaller at Greaves Sidings. I haven't yet decided on the controlling method. It could be a lever or merely a switch but will work the servo via the MegaPoints Controllers servo driver. Whatever I use I intend the clearing of the distant to be through electrical interlocking with the section signal.
I hope this makes sense.
Tony

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:49 pm

OK I have details of the megapoints so I will knock up a wiring sketch. I think the simplest solution is to use a relay and diode to do the slotting, they should be located close to the megapoints. Suitable relays are best mounted on printed circuit board such as a small piece of stripboard. This can also be fitted with terminal blocks for wiring or wires just soldered directly. I can do a parts list also. I like to use molex style connectors but these need a crimp tool so not worthwhile for a small job unless you have the correct tool already.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Alan Turner
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Alan Turner » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:50 pm

Tonycardall wrote:
They can be fitted just the other side of the tappet in order to provide the necessary guidance


On a slightly off topic but loosely connected set of questions. (I know that this is cheeky but you may be able to aim me in the right direction)
1. Should my levers for ground signals have a white band on the red background?

Regards,
Tony


Very unlikely as that would imply they are locked by the Block/Token instrument.

regards

Alan

Tonycardall

Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:31 pm

Very unlikely as that would imply they are locked by the Block/Token instrument.

Alan,
Many thanks for that. I wasn't certain, though I feel I should be, as to whether the levers for disc signals should be painted differently to main line stop signals.
Tony


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