Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:33 pm

Very unlikely as that would imply they are locked by the Block/Token instrument.


Keith, Once again this is really kind of you. I'll try to not come up with too many supplementary questions.
Tony

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:42 pm

Tonycardall wrote:... I'll try to not come up with too many supplementary questions.
Tony


I don't see why not - it is your topic: ask whatever you want for me!

Tonycardall wrote:2. Do you think that signals 14, 19 and 22 should be yellow? IE. authorised to pass without being cleared providing you are not taking a route that would require the signal to be cleared. I'm paraphrasing as I don't have a rule book to hand and I don't know if that method was used in those days.


Not sure this got answered ... it is my understanding that the GW did not use yellow arms in this situation but the spectacle glasses were clear rather than red.

Just on the white banding of red levers, your starting signals should have a white band as they should be locked electrically by the block. (I do have some etches for electric locks if you feel like it! - some details here:- https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64065-leeds-city-the-midland-side-in-4mm/page/41/)

But I know other people who have used servo motors to lock the levers in such a situation, which if you only need a couple is not too bad a solution.

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Noel
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Noel » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:39 pm

JFS wrote:Not sure this got answered ... it is my understanding that the GW did not use yellow arms in this situation but the spectacle glasses were clear rather than red.


The 1936 General Appendix shows all types of independent ground signals as having green and either red or white aspects, but a red arm, with or without white disc according to type. Non-independent signals could also have red or white, plus green, aspects, with appropriate coloured surround to the lens. BR(WR) used a yellow arm on white disc, and yellow and green aspects, for conditional ground signals, but I don't know when the change took place; it was not retrospective, so such signals were not very common.
Regards
Noel

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:12 pm

Tonycardall wrote:Keith, Once again this is really kind of you. I'll try to not come up with too many supplementary questions.
Tony

Diagram attached, hope it makes sense.

Not attached anymore, after checking the data sheets in detail I had to modify the circuit slightly. Anyone who wants to use it get in touch.
Regards
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Drawing needed modification
Regards
Keith
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bécasse
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby bécasse » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:43 pm

Noel wrote:BR(WR) used a yellow arm on white disc, and yellow and green aspects, for conditional ground signals, but I don't know when the change took place; it was not retrospective, so such signals were not very common.


Early 1950s but, as Noel implies, they were only used for new works or necessary replacements so they were never very common. Not only had the other three grouping companies used them from c.1930 but they also (gradually, money was short) introduced them for relevant existing installations, changing red dollies to yellow ones.

Pannier Tank
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Pannier Tank » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:56 am

JFS wrote:Not sure this got answered ... it is my understanding that the GW did not use yellow arms in this situation but the spectacle glasses were clear rather than red.

The GWSG Book on "GWR Signalling Practice by D.J.Smith" mentions the use of Ground Shunt Signals with Clear & Green Aspects and Red Arm on White Disc for movements in normal direction of travel. For instance the Home Signal on the approach to Mortonhampstead has a Shunt Signal just in advance of it at the toe of the point to the Loop which has a Clear & Green Aspects.
Regards

David

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:15 pm

BR(WR) used a yellow arm on white disc, and yellow and green aspects, for conditional ground signals, but I don't know when the change took place; it was not retrospective, so such signals were not very common.

Noel, Thank you. I think that in view of this and as I cannot find any evidence to the contrary, (why did so many photographers take pictures with ruddy engines in the way of the detail?), for the signals mentioned, I'll go with clear and green aspects. That at least will satisfy me that my drivers are not passing signals at danger when shunting the yard.
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:17 pm

Early 1950s but, as Noel implies, they were only used for new works or necessary replacements so they were never very common.


Agreed, I can't see my little station yard being upgraded, even though it was on a main route.

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:39 pm

The GWSG Book on "GWR Signalling Practice by D.J.Smith" mentions the use of Ground Shunt Signals with Clear & Green Aspects and Red Arm on White Disc for movements in normal direction of travel.

Thank you David. I should clearly spend more time reading and less making locking frames. ;) Also, I should pay more attention to what is in front of me. Now that I've had a quick rummage in the book, I see good examples of shunting signals in App 4 iv. They do in fact clearly show plain glass and green indications. I will have to do some more research as I suspect that there would be instructions that the signaller would need to come to a clear understanding with the shunting staff when intending to move points giving access to the yard/sidings where shunting takes place.
I'm intrigued by 'normal direction of travel'. I can see why that would be as a driver would not wish to encounter a red aspect when running on the main line but, does this mean that 'wrong direction movements would have a red in place of clear? Another can of worms that I'm sure I can find the answer to.
Of course, my original question was just about, 'conditional' movements' but now I think I'll have to do some more digging before going too much further. I confess that I asked the question because I know that some readers of this post have examined the box diagram and are more or less familiar with the principals involved. I would have thought that signals that must be passed under instructions from the person in charge of the yard for the purpose of shunting would be differently identified to those that must be obeyed at all times by the driver. (if you see what I mean).
There was a time when I was supposed to know all of this!
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:44 pm

To save the time creating a parts list and you from trying to source in small quantities where the costs are inflated and postage added I can just pick the relevant bits from my spares and assemble a relay board for you.

Keith, I am overwhelmed, That is way beyond kind. Naturally, I'd like to take you up on the kind offer. Honestly, I am almost speechless.
Thanks you so much,
Tony

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:42 pm

Tony,
PM with address will sort it.
Regards
Keith
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Noel
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:32 pm

bécasse wrote:Not only had the other three grouping companies used them from c.1930 but they also (gradually, money was short) introduced them for relevant existing installations, changing red dollies to yellow ones.


Although the SR used yellow arms on a black disk [which has always seemed much clearer to me]; I think I have seen a subsidiary semaphore signal with a yellow arm and a vertical black stripe [not a chevron] as well.

Tonycardall wrote: I will have to do some more research as I suspect that there would be instructions that the signaller would need to come to a clear understanding with the shunting staff when intending to move points giving access to the yard/sidings where shunting takes place.


Always, although once the basic decisions had been made intermediate communication might be by whistle and hand signals. Rule 111(b) of the BR book applies, and explicitly states that the signalman's authority is not required to pass a conditional shunt signal on the line it doesn't apply to; it's up to the signalman to satisfy himself it is safe to move the points.

Tonycardall wrote:I'm intrigued by 'normal direction of travel'. I can see why that would be as a driver would not wish to encounter a red aspect when running on the main line but, does this mean that 'wrong direction movements would have a red in place of clear? Another can of worms that I'm sure I can find the answer to.


The GWR had a specific signal for backing movements, where these were common, a small red arm with two holes in it. Interestingly, the 1936 GA states "Light white or red", implying it could be a conditional signal. A driver running right line would not see the red of a backing signal, as it faces the other way. In yards where, for example, part of the train might be left on the main line while shunting was being done, the return to the main line would be past a fixed signal, conditional or otherwise depending on circumstances, but reversing to collect the rest of the train would probably be authorised by a hand signal from the box.
Regards
Noel

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:40 pm

Another thought following my experience with making the locking frame. Some time ago I decided that I needed a smaller vice for modelling than my workbench vice and did an Amazon search for a modeller's vice. Yes, I know! Anyway I bought the Stanley one as a) there is plenty of flexibility for use, b) it is a well known make and c) not too expensive. It has served me well but just wasn't good enough for making up the bridles and tappets because the jaws don't grip evenly along the whole face. However tight I clamped pieces for filing I would find that one end was only loosely gripped and this caused enough movement to allow metal to bend or for the piece to slip giving an uneven filing surface. So, another note to self, buy a half decent jeweller's vice and, note to others intending build a locking frame, satisfy yourself that your vice is better quality than mine. IE, grips firmly, consistently across the whole face of the jaws.
Via a Google search I've just seen a Cooksongold Pecision bench vice at £59.99. Unless anyone says that I shouldn't I think I might invest in one. I dare say that a professional version would be much more expensive but I don't believe that I would get enough benefit from a top line vice.
Thoughts welcome.
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:15 pm

The GWR had a specific signal for backing movements, where these were common, a small red arm with two holes in it

Noel, thank you for responding. The thing is that we know from the box diagram, that the signals controlled by Southam Road and Harbury Box for the purposes of main line shunting for the period that I am modelling. c.1962, was by ground disc signals. The question arose as to the aspects for signals within the yard that need to be cleared for access to the main line. There are three such signals, two of which are yard to down main in a facing direction and one which takes you yard to the Up main via a single slip across the down main. The yard is on the down side. Each of these signals obviously will show a 45 degree red banner and a green light when cleared for the main line BUT, they are locked by the associated point and therefore cannot be cleared for movements that do not require the point to be reversed. If it was in an MAS area the ground position signal would be yellow and white when 'ON' and most likely associated with a ground frame. What I don't know is what happens with yard signals located along a siding road. Did the driver expect to pass a red horizontal banner under the instructions of the shunter? Anyway, I feel bad taking up this post with this side issue which a) I should know the answer to and b) I ought to do my own research for.
That said, any help would be very welcome. :)
Incidentally, the only colour print that I have access to which shows the front face of a ground disc at Southam Road is for signal 10 which takes you over the trailing Up Main/ Down Main crossover and it is not clear enough for me to identify if the 'ON' aspect is red or clear.
Tony

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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Pannier Tank » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:43 pm

Tonycardall wrote:I'm intrigued by 'normal direction of travel'. I can see why that would be as a driver would not wish to encounter a red aspect when running on the main line but, does this mean that 'wrong direction movements would have a red in place of clear?


I would say yes. On Moretonhampstead I will use Red/Green aspects on all Ground Shunt Signals with the exception of the Loop access which will be White/Green as described earlier.
Regards

David

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:02 pm

I will use Red/Green aspects on all Ground Shunt Signals with the exception of the Loop access which will be White/Green as described earlier.
Regards

That makes sense to me David.
Tony

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Noel
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:15 pm

In my view departing Yard to Up line is not a "wrong direction" or "backing" movement as you end up going in the right direction on the Up main. The 1956 diagram on the SRS site shows single discs on all Yard exits, so all three should, I believe, be conditional signals, since there are legitimate reasons why all three can be passed whilst remaining within the yard. Whether they actually were is another matter!
Regards
Noel

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:57 pm

Yard to Up line is not a "wrong direction" or "backing" movement

You are quite right Noel. That was very clumsily put. What I was trying to indicate was that the signal face would not be seen by a driver on the main line and, therefore, no need to consider the driver seeing a red light.
Regards,
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:44 pm

PM with address will sort it.

Keith, what can I say? For the benefit of the post, a quick update. I asked if there was a method of recreating slotting electrically rather than mechanically. In no time at all Keith offered to produce a schematic to enable me to create a small circuit to achieve the result I wanted. Today I received in the post a copy of the schematic along with some easy to follow instructions AND, the circuit board made up and ready to be connected.
Thank you Keith, you are a gent!
So, it is wired up (albeit temporarily for test purposes), and works perfectly. If I reverse the lever for the distant at box B, nothing happens until the Section signal at Box A is cleared, when the distant arm also drops. If I replace the Section signal, the distant returns to 'ON'.
Honestly, I couldn't be more pleased. I feel very much in your debt.

Regards,
Tony

Pannier Tank
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Pannier Tank » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:07 pm

Howard / Tony,

Could either of you please advise what the Max Throw is for the Top Take-off Clevis and Bottom Take-off Clevis is please?
Regards

David

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:14 pm

So, it is wired up (albeit temporarily for test purposes), and works perfectly.

Fast work, great, that is reward in itself
Regards
Regards
Keith
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JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:52 pm

Pannier Tank wrote:Could either of you please advise what the Max Throw is for the Top Take-off Clevis and Bottom Take-off Clevis is please?


The throw of the top clevis is 16.5mm (intended to give 15mm after some losses in a rodding run). The bottom take-off gives a max of 6.25mm (intended to give 5mm after losses)

Hope that helps,

Pannier Tank
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Pannier Tank » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 am

JFS wrote:The throw of the top clevis is 16.5mm (intended to give 15mm after some losses in a rodding run). The bottom take-off gives a max of 6.25mm (intended to give 5mm after losses)

Hope that helps,


Howard,

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

Look away now!

I'm looking into Building an Electro-Mechanical Interlocking Frame using Servos for the Locking and needed the dimensions to complete my drawings.
Regards

David

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:07 pm

I'm looking into Building an Electro-Mechanical Interlocking Frame using Servos for the Locking

David,
Good Luck. I hope that you will post your progress for the benefit of all!
Regards,
Tony

Pannier Tank
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Pannier Tank » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Tonycardall wrote:
I'm looking into Building an Electro-Mechanical Interlocking Frame using Servos for the Locking

David,
Good Luck. I hope that you will post your progress for the benefit of all!
Regards,
Tony


Will do, I'm in the early stages of doing the design /drawings for the Interlocking Frame.
Regards

David


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