Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:34 am

Wow!!
Thanks Becasse for this exposition. It confirms much of my understanding and adds a lot to it.

When I was planning the model of Dartmouth some 10 years ago an early decision was to have the Totnes & Dartmouth Rly double tracked.
The Directors had some inkling that the tourist trade in S. Devon had potential and wanted to encourage that for their better profit. In reality it was decades before tourism came to Dartmouth and the old trades of heavy engineering, smuggling, piracy and fishing reigned supreme.

Paul Willis had observed that most BG layouts tended to be "pretty". I prefer urban and industrial grot.

The far sightedness of the T&DR Directors did not save the Rly from bankruptcy in 1902, but that is another story, as told on the layout display.

I have chosen to "oversignal" the model for the period for four reasons:

1. My other model of Highbridge in 1913 is under-signalled and my chums give me a hard time over that.
2. The Totnes area was used to trial more modern signalling and embryo interlocking in my period. It seems plausible that many experimental arrangements would be tried on the branch before being attempted on the SDR main line.
3. It gives me an excuse to have lots of different types of signal as Becasse describes above.
4. Its MY model of a railway that should have been but never was. My imagination gets a freer rein here that it could at Highbridge where my attention to historical accuracy is much greater, except for the signalling!

I am delighted that my provocative jingoism was so productive of further insights :D

The simplified signalling diagram submitted by Becasse was exactly how the ine and station was built in the late 1860s.
My later "modernised" version swept away the old thinking and the line was a pioneer in trying new ideas. Rule 0 applies.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:48 am

The cunning plan has evolved to Mk III.
This needs to be seen together with the revised Track Diagram "Dartmouth 17Stn.any" which is attached here. Track has not changed but this now includes more civil engineering features, in particular the overbridge and platform 1.

Dartmouth-17_Stn.pdf
(2.72 MiB) Downloaded 34 times


The Board of Trade Inspector rejected Mk I where the signal box was to be on the end of Platform 2/3 ( as I proposed a few days ago) due to impossible sight lines through the overbridge. He rejected proposal Mk II because the lever frame numbers read from right to left. Having a Moroccan father I would have thought he would accept that, but no!

So the Mk III puts the signal box under the road overbridge facing West and the frame is at the front of the box.
The model lever frame will be nearby (in the River Dart) and facing the same way.

I attach the lever frame diagram.

Dartmouth Lever Frame MkIII.docx
(5.12 KiB) Downloaded 28 times


I have taken on most of the received advice above but depart in a few instances where the advice would be appropriate for say 1900 but in my 1870s period rules scarcely existed and the signalling was created on the hoof according to the local signalling engineers whim. You might care to refer to Ernest Struggle's comments about Sprigallily and his signalling quirks.

qv ISBN 978 1 7397947 0 5 and ISBN 978 1 7397947 1 2 being Vols 1 &2 of "Ernest Struggles OR The Life of a Staion Master"
Published 2022 by Broad Guage Society. Available as a pair from publications@broadgauge.org.uk at £22.50 +postage
More info can be seen at
http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/pubs/pub_bgs_books.html

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:02 am

Quite apart from the lever frame numbering issue, I have received several suggestionms about how I should signal Dartmouth in 1870s.

The most surprising contributions were from Tim Venton re Ffestiniog's early advanced procxedures and Becasse telling me that in the interest of histrorical accuracy I was proposing too many signals !

A chum mentioned a book I had never heard of "Two centuries of Rly Signalling". I now have a copy of the revised second edition and it fills many gaps in my knowledge as assessed in a quick skim read.

A more thorough read may well change my plans yet again; If so I will let you know here, or you will have to go to Railwells next August.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:04 am

Meanwhile It may interest you to know what is happening with my 21 lever frame....visit my workshop blog.

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Tim V
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Tim V » Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:15 pm

My Fezzy stuff is inaccessible at present, but the FR's original terminus at Duffws may be of interest to you. Try a web search - see if anything comes up.

Caveat - FR was right hand running ...
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

bécasse
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby bécasse » Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:55 pm

Real caveat - Dinas was signalled by someone else (McK&H) and that really matters in the 1870s.

Most of the 1870s semaphore work on the Broad Gauge GWR, and all of it on the SDR and B&ER, was done by Saxby & Farmer, furthermore any new works from 1873 onwards had to conform to BoT requirements in accordance with the 1873 Act. Between 1873 and 1876 that gives you S&F signals and an attractive variety of possible S&F boxes (which I will come back to). Distant (actually "warning") and home signals were identical and had red lenses for red lights when on but no lenses for white lights when off. Ground signals, only protecting entry to running lines, would have been co-acting rotating point indicators (to S&F designs but not very different from the slightly later GWR version).

I do have an alternative, and more plausible, scenario for you. The line was built as single track but with provision for double track (as was the never-doubled Moretonhampstead branch) and then for some reason (which you have to think up) was doubled in 1874 and as a consequence completely resignalled by S&F to conform to the brand new BoT requirements. This gives you an interesting, "accurate" and perfectly plausible layout.

This would be my take on the signal diagram (unnumbered points are handworked and there are no facing points for passenger trains so no fpls):

signalsDartmouth.jpg


and a possible S&F signal box would be something akin to this, although totally in wood and quite possibly taller:

SoutherhamJuncSB.jpg



I am away for a few days but this will at least give you some food for thought.

bécasse
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby bécasse » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:12 am

Paul

Actually a plausible story behind the doubling of the line suddenly came to me, although doubtless you will think of something better.

In 1871 (when a newly unified Germany had just defeated France in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1), an entrepreneur came up with the idea of building a huge German-style spa complex at Dartmouth (think Baden-Baden but there were plenty of other examples - and in France too). If it was to be successful, it would need good rail access and the single track branch would have been inadequate so the entrepreneur persuaded the South Devon to double the branch (and build a new "grand terminus" just beyond the existing terminus at Dartmouth). Doubling a line whose earthworks already allowed for double track would not have been unduly expensive so that happened, but the spa complex fell through and the grand terminus never got built - resulting exactly in your proposed layout. Twenty-five years later the imposing site prepared for the spa complex was finally put to good use - the Britannia Naval College was built on it.

David

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Tim V
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Tim V » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:39 pm

bécasse wrote:Real caveat - Dinas was signalled by someone else (McK&H) and that really matters in the 1870s.

I am away for a few days but this will at least give you some food for thought.


Dinas was on the NWNGR, I'm on about the FR terminus in Blaenau Ffestiniog.

From memory, I think it was two single lines, but I really need to look at the books.

Plausible excuse though!
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

Alan Turner
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:42 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Hi Paul,
as a frame does not have a lever 0


Never say never Keith:


Lever 0 at BS.JPG


regards

Alan

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:32 pm

Heyup....and I had decided to follow Keith's dictum so have started renumbering everything.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Advice sought for lever sequence for Dartmouth

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:37 pm

There's always the exception that proves the rule! If you want to use the exception you should have a good backstory :)
Regards
Keith
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