Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

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ginger_giant
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:22 pm

Tim V wrote:That could be done by a few choice gradients, if the reception road (for example) was on a rising gradient, the wagons would just roll past the engine. By the way I'm not saying this is what would have been done.

I've seen yards which were entirely worked by gravity, locos just delivered and collected wagons.


Missed this post, sorry Tim. I think I have read somewhere of empty coal wagons being propelled down the coaling stage slope under gravity with pinned down brakes. Must see if I can find it again as I like your suggestion of the headshunt being on a slope. Me thinks this would make a nice project to replicate wagons moving under gravity. ;)

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Tim V
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:53 pm

ginger_giant wrote:Missed this post, sorry Tim. I think I have read somewhere of empty coal wagons being propelled down the coaling stage slope under gravity with pinned down brakes. Must see if I can find it again as I like your suggestion of the headshunt being on a slope. Me thinks this would make a nice project to replicate wagons moving under gravity. ;)

Easily done with DCC in the wagons.
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ginger_giant
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:01 pm

DCC is the way I want to go, I've registered on the MERG site to learn more.

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:13 am

After reading comments I've decided to drop the idea of The North Yard & Sidings, after all, they were only a possibility. Also in revisiting the location most of the cheap land is on the south side of the line in which case I would assume the GWR would have built the exchange sidings there.
Rospeath Lane v18-3 signal box diagram.jpg

I'm hoping I have understood all comments correctly. I've added 14 as a shunt from the Shed to Reception/Headshunt also, spread the 3 spare levers across the Lever frame.

I have three questions,
1) I'm unsure of is the Bracket Home signal and which order the signals would have been on the frame?
2) Should there be a shunt from Down to South Yard & Sidings, I have left lever 7 spare just in case?
3) Would 14 be duplicated on the Coaling Stage?

Cheers
Ian

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Noel
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:48 am

ginger_giant wrote:I have three questions,
1) I'm unsure of is the Bracket Home signal and which order the signals would have been on the frame?
2) Should there be a shunt from Down to South Yard & Sidings, I have left lever 7 spare just in case?
3) Would 14 be duplicated on the Coaling Stage?


1) My guess is that 17 and 18 should be swapped, so that the main line run would require 18, 19 and 20 pulled, with 17 as the yard entry. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see other suggestions though.
2) Most likely would be a second disc above 10, I think. If 4 is a ringed arm I would expect 17 [my numbering] to be one as well, unless it is a later replacement.
3) In this sort of low speed non-running line context it was not entirely unknown to have one signal applying to all the exits; it would possibly be a subsidiary arm on a post though, not a disc, for visibility, and would be between the coal stage and shed/turntable exits, applying to both.
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Noel

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:29 am

Noel wrote:1) My guess is that 17 and 18 should be swapped, so that the main line run would require 18, 19 and 20 pulled, with 17 as the yard entry. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see other suggestions though.
2) Most likely would be a second disc above 10, I think. If 4 is a ringed arm I would expect 17 [my numbering] to be one as well, unless it is a later replacement.
3) In this sort of low speed non-running line context it was not entirely unknown to have one signal applying to all the exits; it would possibly be a subsidiary arm on a post though, not a disc, for visibility, and would be between the coal stage and shed/turntable exits, applying to both.


Thanks Noel
1) I understand that sequence as 18, 19,20 are the priority, and 17 would be the secondary route. (if that is the correct terminology)
2) Understand but not sure if that would be GWR practice. My understanding of the ringed signal is it was for exits from a goods loops or sidings but I could be wrong.
3) I see what you're suggesting and now you've mentioned it I've got a feeling I've seen an arrangement like that somewhere, not sure if it was at an Engine Shed or Sidings. A small arm on a short signal would be a addition.

Regards
Ian
Last edited by ginger_giant on Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:04 pm

re item 1. See the diagrams for Melksham and Limply Stoke Tim posted, both follow the convention Noel recommended.
re shunt signals, I would swap the numbers for 14 and 15 to keep the entry signal lever next to its crossover..To protect moves over 13, then (my number) does need to apply to all the shed roads, hence needs to be visible from all the roads.
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Keith
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:06 pm

Thanks Keith
grovenor-2685 wrote:re item 1. See the diagrams for Melksham and Limply Stoke Tim posted, both follow the convention Noel recommended.re shunt signals, I would swap the numbers for 14 and 15 to keep the entry signal lever next to its crossover..To protect moves over 13, then (my number) does need to apply to all the shed roads, hence needs to be visible from all the roads.

Hmm missed that on Tim's diagram, I'll amend accordingly.

In looking in more depth at the Melksham and Limply Stoke diagrams I notice that there are detonators indicated. On Melkshem 6 & 38 seem to be detonators operated from the main leaver frame while at Limply Stoke the detonators are indicated to be worked by a small 2 lever frame. I'm surprised at the location of the detonators being in front of the Signal Box and that indicated that they are operated by levers not manually place by the signalman.

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Ian

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby bécasse » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:14 pm

17 (as the signal controlling the divergence into the sidings) needs a short subsidiary arm (without a ring), 4 would be a short arm with a ring (as shown). On the assumption that normal practice was followed and that there would be a pair of stacked discs at 10, they could be worked by a single lever and just selected by the position of the points in crossover 5, the interlocking would be the same.

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:50 pm

I think I would drop disc 14, no need for it. Ringed arm 4 should be a disc.

Agree on the numbering on the bracket. Presume 18 would be a 3' arm?

Here is an older style of digram.
Winchcombe Museum 1993-9 307 (7).jpg
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:22 pm

Tim V wrote:I think I would drop disc 14, no need for it.

Well, not if you are happy that all the loco crews will notice that 13 has been reversed, somewhat risky IMHO.

That Abbotford diagram has the text for FPL 14 in a confusing place, looks as though it refers to point 26 when it should be for point 29. And there is plenty of blank space where it would be unambiguous and placed similarly to the other FPL text. Still, years to late to fix it now. :)
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Keith
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:32 pm

Tim V wrote:I think I would drop disc 14, no need for it. Ringed arm 4 should be a disc.


This very much depends on when the location was last resignalled, Tim, see Vaughan's Great Western Signalling pp59/60. This was always subject, of course, to subsequent replacements of individual arms or complete signals, but such changes were not retrospective, i.e. changes were not made unless necessary, so that some ringed signals remained until resignalling under MAS, even though they were not installed new after 1949.

So far as 14 is concerned, I have suggested it should be a semaphore arm for visibility, but it is essential, since otherwise a loco can enter [or try to] the interlocked area without the signalman being involved, and a driver leaving the shed would have no unambiguous indication that it is safe for him to proceed, which I would doubt that either the BoT or the GWR management would regard as acceptable.
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Noel

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby davebradwell » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:39 pm

Wouldn't the new 17 be better as 7 to save the signalman a hike after pulling 5?

The wiggling dead end sidings through the bridge trouble me a bit - how would driver know when he was about to demolish the buffers? Would they be better straight - I don't know? You might just allow yourself modellers' licence.

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:39 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:That Abbotford diagram has the text for FPL 14 in a confusing place, looks as though it refers to point 26 when it should be for point 29.


I presume you mean Andoversford, Keith. FPL 14 does relate to 26; the branch is single, and the blue line behind it is a siding [probably a lie-by], 29 being the exit trap points, with 28 the dummy controlling exit.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Tim V » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:43 pm

14 could be one of those signals normally left off, otherwise the signalman would forever be pulling it on and off for every move, they are though unusual. Hence I don't think it would have been there.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:38 pm

Noel wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:That Abbotford diagram has the text for FPL 14 in a confusing place, looks as though it refers to point 26 when it should be for point 29.


I presume you mean Andoversford, Keith. FPL 14 does relate to 26; the branch is single, and the blue line behind it is a siding [probably a lie-by], 29 being the exit trap points, with 28 the dummy controlling exit.


There you go, can't even read the name properly let alone the diagram, you are right of course.

Tim V wrote:14 could be one of those signals normally left off, otherwise the signalman would forever be pulling it on and off for every move, they are though unusual. Hence I don't think it would have been there.

Yes, left off until the Bobby needs to pull 13, but I'm with Noel, its needed, expecting the crew to notice that 13 is reverse among all those other trailing hand points that they can run through is a very bad idea.
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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:01 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Tim V wrote:14 could be one of those signals normally left off, otherwise the signalman would forever be pulling it on and off for every move, they are though unusual. Hence I don't think it would have been there.

Yes, left off until the Bobby needs to pull 13, but I'm with Noel, its needed, expecting the crew to notice that 13 is reverse among all those other trailing hand points that they can run through is a very bad idea.


I've looked through some of the photographic information I have and think Exeter had a bracket signal with two small arms with circles controlling the exit from the shed across the internal shed roads. Also, Worcester shed had a single arm signal next to the Signal box that looks like it was for the shed exit towards Shrub Hill Station. So on this evidence 12 could be a Ground or Small Arm Signal with or without a Circle. But, I can't find any evidence of a signal, ground or otherwise to fit the situation I have for 15. That said I'm with Keith and Noel on this one, sorry Tim.

On another note, it looks like I'll require at least 16 levers so will require 4 of the 5 lever Scalefour Frames. So 20 levers using 15 as always off unless a Loco is arriving or departing the shed, leaving 3 spare but could use the spare 11 as a slightly unusual (for the GWR) double disk (justified by later RCH requirements under BR resignalling?). The double disk ground signal might depend on my ground signal construction skills.

Rospeath Lane v18-4 signal box diagram.jpg

This has helped a lot with the track plan, so glad I asked the question at this stage, and really appreciate all the advice. Anyway, I now need to crack on with the baseboards and think about laying the track. Think I'll leave interlocking for future.
Regards
Ian

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby JFS » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:46 pm

ginger_giant wrote:...
Think I'll leave interlocking for future.
Ian


Quite right too! But I think you have demonstrated perfectly why, when developing a 'fictional' layout, it is very helpful to think about the signalling - very well done for that.
Also just to mention in passing that sometimes choices you make in numbering the frame can make life a bit easier for yourself when it comes to the locking. The locking for this layout is pretty simple so there is no big deal, but, as an example, the South Yard entry signal could perhaps be 7 rather than 17 (saves the signalman a walk!) and that would enable the bridle to be much shorter to give the released by (5,6) locks 9 function which, at first glance, is all that lever needs. It also gives the signalman a nice 5,6,7 pull-sequence.

Similarly, since 4 is released by 8, it might be worth thinking about having the current 4 and 8 or alternativly the Xovers 5 and 9 concecutively numbered. (though equally it might not as it might complicate other things!) Now I am not saying that either of those things IS a good thing to do - just that when you come to the locking, don't feel constrained by what is already committed to paper!!

I don't think I am giving away any state secrets if I mention that the next MRJ (currently in preparation) has the first of a 3-part article on mechanical and electrical locking using the society MkII bits (for a 70-lever frame). In that case, we already had the prototype diagram to follow, but when I looked into the locking, it became clear why they had chosen certain particular numbering options! You will also see an example of an "always-off" signal (actually a slot) - lever 53 - in similar a situation to your 15.

If you are not a subscriber, it might be worth getting hold of a copy. I would like to be able say that the article is written by someone who knows what they are talking about, but it is actually written by me ...

Good luck with an interesting project and I hope you will post constructional progress!

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby Noel » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:00 pm

A minor point, but looking at your latest diagram in connection with the track plan, I would move 15 one point to the left, so that it is clearly applicable to, and visible from, any of the shed exit roads, including the rear sidings.
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Noel

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Re: Signal box diagram for Rospeath Lane

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:56 pm

JFS wrote:The locking for this layout is pretty simple so there is no big deal, but, as an example, the South Yard entry signal could perhaps be 7 rather than 17 (saves the signalman a walk!) and that would enable the bridle to be much shorter to give the released by (5,6) locks 9 function which, at first glance, is all that lever needs. It also gives the signalman a nice 5,6,7 pull-sequence.

I'll certainly bear that in mind when I get to the locking frame.
JFS wrote:Similarly, since 4 is released by 8, it might be worth thinking about having the current 4 and 8 or alternativly the Xovers 5 and 9 concecutively numbered. (though equally it might not as it might complicate other things!) Now I am not saying that either of those things IS a good thing to do - just that when you come to the locking, don't feel constrained by what is already committed to paper!!

I don't think I am giving away any state secrets if I mention that the next MRJ (currently in preparation) has the first of a 3-part article on mechanical and electrical locking using the society MkII bits (for a 70-lever frame). In that case, we already had the prototype diagram to follow, but when I looked into the locking, it became clear why they had chosen certain particular numbering options! You will also see an example of an "always-off" signal (actually a slot) - lever 53 - in similar a situation to your 15.

If you are not a subscriber, it might be worth getting hold of a copy. I would like to be able say that the article is written by someone who knows what they are talking about, but it is actually written by me ...

Not quite sure what you're suggesting with the crossovers but looking forward to reading your articles in the MRJ.
JFS wrote:Good luck with an interesting project and I hope you will post constructional progress!

Once the baseboards are built I'll shart a layout thread.
Thanks, Howard

Noel wrote:A minor point, but looking at your latest diagram in connection with the track plan, I would move 15 one point to the left, so that it is clearly applicable to, and visible from, any of the shed exit roads, including the rear sidings.

I see what you're saying but I'll take stock of signal positions once the track is in place so I can check sightings.
Thanks Noel

Regards
Ian


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