"West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:34 am

Following on from the above. :)

Having been asked recently about when the index might be forthcoming I have to admit that I cannot find enough time to do this properly, however I have been offered some help to get some form of index or headings done, a full index it is a fairly major task although it could be done as "chapters" covering each part of the thread. I do know from conversations at exhibitions that some people have downloaded the whole thing and I was wondering if anyone had already made an index or even made a list of Chapter headings and content within already and might be willing to help here. Suggestions anyone? I will post this on the other 2 threads as well. If responding it will only need a response from one of the three loco building threads.

Allan :)

Julian Roberts
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed May 13, 2020 11:52 am

Hi Allan - it's good to see you back on the Forum with your other threads. :thumb

I am not sure whether to post this here or on Steve Duckworth's very short thread "Brass Preparation for Painting" viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1066 which has the title that I would turn to first if searching this subject. I will put a link there to this one.

You wrote to me recently suggesting Carr's Acidip to clean the brass loco for painting. What bothers me about this is that to immerse the model in it, rather a lot is needed, and it's not cheap. (There is a thread on Carr's Acidip too viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4938 ). I am wondering what else we can use that's a bit more economical.

On that Acidip thread Flymo shows a loco that is tarnished but, he says, chemically clean, and then shows it beautifully painted, demonstrating that discolouration of the brass is no problem. Unfortunately he doesn't say what he used to get it to this discoloured stage.

I used Flash to clean my latest loco, soaking it for an afternoon. It came out looking like this, squeaky clean but discoloured. I don't know whether it would have been OK like that to paint on, but didn't risk it.
20200508_181946.jpg

This discolouration burnished off perfectly easily with the glass fibre brush, and then I used Vim and toothbrush to get it grease free.

Andy in our group sent me this recipe that jewellers use, where citric acid is the cleaning agent. I've just been to the chemist and a fiver will give me plenty of the "pickle" at the strength to be used cold. I wonder what you (and others) think?

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Will L
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Will L » Wed May 13, 2020 12:21 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:...Andy in our group sent me this recipe that jewellers use, where citric acid is the cleaning agent. I've just been to the chemist and a fiver will give me plenty of the "pickle" at the strength to be used cold. I wonder what you (and others) think?


Julian

Thank you, I think that's useful, and certainly a new idea to me at least. Though I now wonder why that should be. We (the Mrs and me) travelled widely in North Africa and the Middle East and, having explored many a souk (market) where brass ware is a common product, we are familiar with their effective use of lemon juice (and fine sand) for cleaning it.
Last edited by Will L on Wed May 13, 2020 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Terry Bendall
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed May 13, 2020 3:19 pm

The use of an acid pickle is commonplace in the silversmithing and jewellery trades where a 10 solution of sulphuric acid is used. I used to use it frequently in school. There are hazards as the safety sheet shows and the citric acid is obviously safer. I used to use pumice powder to clean after pickling which is basically Vim without the soap.

Terry Bendall

Philip Hall
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Philip Hall » Wed May 13, 2020 6:31 pm

I remember Alan Brackenborough (can there be any higher authority?) writing that the bête noire of a painter is the fibres from a glass fibre brush, along with paste flux. They get everywhere and personally, I can’t stand them in my fingers, never mind the effects on a paint finish. They are very difficult to remove however hard you try.

I have always used a cream cleaner (like Shiny Sinks) with a good rinse afterwards, followed with a blast from a Halfords, or similar, primer.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Thu May 14, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu May 14, 2020 2:08 pm

Like Terry,
I used a nitric acid bath let down with distilled water when doing jewellery work with my students at school. Nowadays, they would never be allowed to use such an acid bath to clean the metal that they were about to enamel, again not sure that the small electric bench kilns would be allowed, and certainly not the asbestos sheets to spare the tables, that were common in the 1970's - how things have changed.

When using glass fibre brushes I also use throw away plastic gloves and work with an apron. When finished and ready to move on I use a small hoover on the piece which is intended for cleaning laptops etc. and on myself I also use the flexible hose and brush on our carpet hoover to clean my apron down - a strange sight I know, but it does the trick in less than a minute and leave the apron ready for the next session, stops particles ending up elsewhere in the house or on your clothes.

The treatment you suggest Philip using shiny sinks is also fine and I always give everything a final wash down with similar and use a tooth brush to remove any residue or chance fibres. I too have great reverence for Mr Brackenburgh's work, after all he is someone who takes a great deal of trouble to get everything right and is painting engines on a daily basis. It is always remarkable when you see his paintwork enlarged just how good it is, there are very few modellers out there that have that level of expertise, but do not let that put anyone off - remember this series is all about doing a lot of things for the first time and hopefully having some success. I am so please that so many like yourself have contributed over the last few years adding experiences that I personally may not have had as after all we are never going to know everything - life is too short sadly.

As you said Philip at Scalefourum when we met up again, sometimes you have to put certain things aside just to get the job done on what you are trying to achieve at home, when we were talking about building layouts for exhibitions vs. home layouts.

Allan :)

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Flymo748
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Flymo748 » Fri May 15, 2020 8:48 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:You wrote to me recently suggesting Carr's Acidip to clean the brass loco for painting. What bothers me about this is that to immerse the model in it, rather a lot is needed, and it's not cheap. (There is a thread on Carr's Acidip too viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4938 ). I am wondering what else we can use that's a bit more economical.

On that Acidip thread Flymo shows a loco that is tarnished but, he says, chemically clean, and then shows it beautifully painted, demonstrating that discolouration of the brass is no problem. Unfortunately he doesn't say what he used to get it to this discoloured stage.


Hi Julian,

It is indeed Acidip that I used to prepare that locomotive for painting. And it's still in an excellent state. Although despite having put the solid base coat down on it, I still haven't done the lining - even though I've fully lined out my E22 buckjumper in the meantime.

I must get around to it soon, but the chassis needs rewheeling so it's currently still on the Shelf of Shame...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Julian Roberts
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri May 15, 2020 9:47 pm

Thanks for that clarification Paul.

I made up the strong citric acid pickle and soaked 3 failure wheels, one axle, and pieces of brass and very soldered nickel silver, for a day. Pleased to say that no problems arose, and after the cleanse as per instructions in soda and plain water the only issue was the steel beginning to slightly discolour. Particularly pleasing is that the paint and the glue fixing the crankpin (Araldite ) show no sign of being attacked.

However I'm still wary of using the brew to prepare my loco and tender chassis for painting...

I wonder what you think of this Allan....

Afterwards:
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Before:
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: "West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco part 2

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun May 17, 2020 7:14 pm

HI Julian, :)

I would not worry, I am surprised you kept it in as long as a day, but that should have convinced you that any surface open to the weather as it were should come up nice and clean. I have often left things overnight and they would be ready to work with the following morning with the minimum of cleaning up.

It is good stuff, if a little limited in the amount you get, but two and the right size of container will do a good number of engines. :thumb

Allan :)


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