Sprung w irons wire size?

[TwentyTwoStu]

Hi guys

I've got a couple of wagon kits which use sprung w irons, however they do not contain the sprung steel wire. Does anyone know what the standard size in mm preferably wire I need to get for this use??? Thanks in advance

Stu

[grovenor-2685]

Depends on the wagon weight, its good to have a few sizes available, say from 8 thou to 11 thou.
Ernie Ball guitar strings are good and the numbers on the packets are the size in thou.

[davebradwell]

It depends very much on the length of the spring between supports. Who's kits are they anyway - I always provide the spring wire? It would be reasonable to expect the designer to at least make a suggestion. 4 wheel wagon should weigh 2 oz (or is it 50gms?) and there used ot be a standard for this.

Aren't we supposed to cal them "axleguards"?

DaveB

[Mark Tatlow]

Stu

It does depend on what weight the wagon is as noted but also whose spring w irons you are using as some have a wider footprint to the eyes where the wires are inserted.

Assuming you are using a standard Bill Bedford version, my advice is to start with no 10 and see how that feels. If it is a white metal kit then maybe no 11 and if you are going tomleave it quite light, then a no 9

The number reference is in 1/1000ths of inches. Whilst you can do the conversion to mm's, no guitar shop will understand you.

And if you have not found https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/ then they are a good place to start.

[TwentyTwoStu]

Thanks for the replies guy I'll start with 10thou and adjust if nessecery.

Cheers

Stu

[Daddyman]

If you have a look on the Wizard website and put "Bill Bedford" in the search box, it will bring up two pages, which contain, among other things, his sprung W-irons. There, you'll see that some of them are supplied with 10 thou wire and some 11 - I don't know why there might be a difference, but if you're using Bedford units for which you've lost the wire, you'll be able to find what the units were originally supplied with.

[Martin Kelly]

Just in case your kits are Rumney Models ones, they typically come supplied with 0.008-inch steel guitar wire for the springs on the assumption of a wagon weight of 50g (I love how we in the UK freely mix Imperial and Metric units in our lives).

I picked up a couple of Rumney Models underframe kits at a bring-and-buy sale which were missing their springing wire and I used this Ernie Ball guitar string as a replacement:

https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings ... ring-p6504

Just over a quid for a whole meter of wire!

They do a range of other thicknesses - see https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings ... uitar-c534 - so hopefully that would cover your needs.

Plus they are tin-plated which makes them easier to solder in place.

[Hardwicke]

Aren't we supposed to cal them "axleguards"?

DaveB

I thought the railways at least MR called them Axle Irons

[Hardwicke]

Is there an equivalent strength and flexibility non ferrous wire for springs? I fear rust. I've used berillum copper but it can sometimes be too flexible.

[martin goodall]

You could try straight brass wire or straight nickel silver wire.

There is not the choice of sizes that there is when buying guitar wire, but 0.33 mm (13-thou) might be O.K. (But I have never tried using this for springing myself, so it's going to be a case of 'suck it and see'.)

[davebradwell]

The standard material for non-ferrous springs is probably phosphor bronze. However, beryllium copper is also widely used and if you say it's too flexible than you obviously need a thicker piece. Phos bronze wire used to be available from Eileen's but I always found it not very springy and it distorted easily so found a source on eBay. It's very, very approximately half the stiffness of steel. How about stainless steel spring wire - another common material?

DaveB

[Will L]

Is there an equivalent strength and flexibility non ferrous wire for springs? I fear rust. I've used berillum copper but it can sometimes be too flexible.

Stop making your own life difficult. You cant beat spring steal wire. Our standard source is guitar springs which are tin plated and don't rust.

Brass is far to easy to bend and though philosopher bronze is better than brass, it still not as suitable as steel and isn't available in the range of sizes we might want.

[Hardwicke]

There's a guitar shop in town or I'll ask friends to give me their broken strings...

[Hardwicke]

Phosphor bronze wire .... It's very, very approximately half the stiffness of steel. How about stainless steel spring wire - another common material?

DaveB

I'll check them out

[zebedeesknees]

There's a guitar shop in town or I'll ask friends to give me their broken strings...

Not a good idea, as areas of the broken string will, by definition, have been stretched beyond it's elastic limit so will not give consistent results.

Those from the guitar shop at about £1.00 per metre make it not worth finding out!

Oh, the Ernie Ball strings are plated with Nickel Silver rather than Tin like some others, though what difference that makes seems to be marginal..

Both appear to be easily solderable, but not recommended for suspensions as too long a linger in contact with the iron will destroy the spring. It is that very point that resulted in the Bill Bedford design of bearing carrier.

Ted.

[jim s-w]

Both appear to be easily solderable, but not recommended for suspensions as too long a linger in contact with the iron will destroy the spring. It is that very point that resulted in the Bill Bedford design of bearing carrier.

Ted.

I found it better to solder the spring in to bills carrier anyway. The reason for this was the wire supplied was never straight and in layout use tended to rotate around meaning your carefully set set up suspension would randomly go out of whack. I use nickel coated guitar springs anyway now

Jim

[Martin Kelly]

Oh, the Ernie Ball strings are plated with Nickel Silver rather than Tin like some others, though what difference that makes seems to be marginal..

Really? The product description at https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings ... ring-p6504 states "Made of specially tempered tin plated high carbon steel" so do you know something I don't? But, as you say, any difference is marginal for our purposes.

Both appear to be easily solderable, but not recommended for suspensions as too long a linger in contact with the iron will destroy the spring. It is that very point that resulted in the Bill Bedford design of bearing carrier.

Not a problem I've had when soldering Ernie Ball guitar string wire to Rumney Models spring carriers. I avoid direct contact between iron and wire though and instead put a small chip of solder on a liberal swipe of flux beside the joint. Then heat the area immediately beside that. Quick in and out, solder flashes round the joint aided by the flux and the job's a good 'un!

[zebedeesknees]

Oh, the Ernie Ball strings are plated with Nickel Silver rather than Tin like some others, though what difference that makes seems to be marginal..

Really? The product description at https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings ... ring-p6504 states "Made of specially tempered tin plated high carbon steel" so do you know something I don't? But, as you say, any difference is marginal for our purposes.

Perhaps they used to be. It's a long time since I re-stocked.. Nickel coated wraps on the wound ones now, but they are useless for suspensions. Other makes say Nickel plated, if it's worth the research. It could be that Tin plating is cheaper as it vaporises at a lower temperature, though the Kilo price is slightly higher.

Both appear to be easily solderable, but not recommended for suspensions as too long a linger in contact with the iron will destroy the spring. It is that very point that resulted in the Bill Bedford design of bearing carrier.

Not a problem I've had when soldering Ernie Ball guitar string wire to Rumney Models spring carriers. I avoid direct contact between iron and wire though and instead put a small chip of solder on a liberal swipe of flux beside the joint. Then heat the area immediately beside that. Quick in and out, solder flashes round the joint aided by the flux and the job's a good 'un!

I have never found a need to solder to the carriers. A slight squeeze on the carrier fingers with the Mauns and they slide along the wire with reluctance, but still adjustable. Not every modeller is talented at soldering, so design that makes it unnecessary and allows for adjustment is a better design imo

Ted.

[Martin Kelly]

Thanks for sharing Ted. That's the beauty of our hobby - there are multiple solutions to every problem and we all eventually find the one that works best for us. Personally, I don't get on with Bill Bedford spring carriers but if they work for you, that's perfect! I would still characterise myself as an inexperience solder-er but I have worked out a consistently repeatable method of soldering guitar string wire to Runmey Models spring carriers that works for me.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Steel has to be heated to at least 600 degrees (according to my internet searches) to lose it's temper, Using 145 or 188 solder with a TCU should avoid any problems with the guitar wire losing temper.

[nberrington]

I'm busy with some Masokits underframes, and Mr. Clark has designed his little bearing carriers such that they don't grab the wire like Bill's do. I felt soldering the wires in place was preferable to crimping the carrier.

I imagine any crimping the etch might distort the carrier and it might not move freely after. I thus took my chances on the solder. The wire didn't appear to temper or change colour, and I didn't hang around with the iron too long. I also used Saphire flux, which is supposedly gentler than my usual Carr's green.

Changing out the wire for a softer or harder ride will be tricky now!

I'm now wondering if a drop of uv glue might not have been a better idea - or perhaps some locktite?

[davebradwell]

Must admit it never even occurred to me that soldering might affect the springiness so thanks to Jol for checking so we can put this one to bed. Music wire isn't very hard - it can just about be filed - so I wouldn't expect it to be susceptible. I use my own spring carriers which I've always soldered although I mostly use phos bronze wire. This is hardened by working but I've never known any loss of springiness, as long as I can find some that's springy in the first place.

The only danger I can see with soldering clip-in type carriers is that the spring is effectively shortened so significantly stiffer. Depends on which bits you solder, of course.

DaveB

[nberrington]

…… I use my own spring carriers which I've always soldered although I mostly use phos bronze wire. This is hardened by working but I've never known any loss of springiness, as long as I can find some that's springy in the first place.

DaveB

That raises some hope for me Dave. I find the guitar strings really hard on tools, and phosphor bronze not quite so nasty.

Bits of steel spring shoot off around the workshop and I worry my cat will do himself an injury!

I’ve been using phosphor bronze for all sorts of things, but never considered it for springs - thinking the gospel dictates 9 thou guitar string!

I assume a 0010 would be about right as it is softer than springy steel?

[davebradwell]

Yes, stiffness goes with the 4th power of diameter so 9 thou' raises to 6561 and 10 to 10000 so with the softer wire that's as near as you'll get. Be sure to get wire described as springy condition. You'll still be pinging short bits of stiff wire around the room, though - a spring is a spring. You need some sort of catcher. Non-ferrous spring can be soldered without acid flux.

There's a lot of stuff on-line about springs and various spring calculators giving deflection for your chosen load.

DaveB