First P4 Layout - First Loco

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
47331xosIM
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First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:05 pm

Hi Chaps,
I have been a member of the Society for a couple of years now, but have done nothing but umm and arrgh about what to do, station, shed, yard, steam, diesel electric etc... The problem of keep changing my mind has been the biggest thing!

However, I have got two weeks off work and with time away having gone out of the window due to some family problems which mean I need to be around for part of each day, I am at a loose end. So I have sent myself the 'Two Week Layout Challenge'! Its not as demented as it sounds, the aim is to do something with it each day, starting from scratch, and see how far I can get! I will continue with it afterwards, just not as quickly. The idea is a small exchange sidings about 4-6ft by 18" long, a couple of points and plenty of shunting option, set in the late 1960s/early 1970s, with the ability to extend it in the future. This evening's task is going to be designing the baseboards!

However, I am coming to this with no 4mm stock at all. A blessing in some ways, a negative in others. My initial thought was to convert a Bachmann Class 08 - although searching through the forum, there are a couple of places that (surprising to me) suggested that the Hornby was better detailed although fragile pick-ups make the conversion a bit harder. It appears that a set of Gibson wheels and etched connecting rods from Brassmasters will complete the basic conversion. Is that right?

The plan is then to fit the model with DCC Sound and weather it. That brings me to another question, the Gibson wheels come with a bright silver rim, that needs blackening, can anyone tell me the best way to do that? Presumably before they are put into the loco?

EDIT: I forgot to ask, for P4 track work from this period, am I correct in thinking Code 55 flat bottom rail would be needed? My plan is to lay onto laser cut timber sleepers, so I need to look for some chairs on the SF stores page.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Richie

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grovenor-2685
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:52 pm

For 1960s-70s its most likely that sidings would still be in bullhead, code 75 being the appropriate size.
If they had been recently relaid with flatbottom that would likely be 109/110 or 113lb/yd all of which can be represented by code 82 or code 83. Code 55 would be much to small.
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Keith
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Jeremy Good
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Jeremy Good » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:08 pm

Hi Richie

I can’t comment on Hornby 08 but have converted a couple of Bachmann ones using Gibson wheels/cranks and Brassmasters rods.

So far I haven’t needed to alter the pick-up strips other than to make sure they reach the back of the wheel treads. The biggest difficulty I found was that the crankpin screws need to be well countersunk on the cranks otherwise they can foul the moulded outside springs on the chassis.

Otherwise they are a fairly straightforward conversion. I’ve not added sound but in the older versions hardwired a decoder which sits behind the radiator grill. No doubt there is info out there about fitting DCC sound but this won’t change with the conversion to the correct gauge.

I generally cheat with wheel blackening by using a Sharpie or similar indelible marker. I have heard of Gun Black in a pen used as well but can’t remember where that was sourced.


Good luck and feel free to PM me if you hit any snags.

Jeremy

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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Enigma » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:58 pm

I use Hobby Holidays Metal Black on Gibson wheels - and virtually anything else as well as it seems to work on most metals.

47331xosIM
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:45 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:For 1960s-70s its most likely that sidings would still be in bullhead, code 75 being the appropriate size.
If they had been recently relaid with flatbottom that would likely be 109/110 or 113lb/yd all of which can be represented by code 82 or code 83. Code 55 would be much to small.


Ah thanks for that. I hadn't considered that bullhead wouldn't have been removed from sidings but obvious now you've mentioned it. Thanks for correcting me on the code as well - I really wasn't sure about the different sizes that are around now. It was all Code 100 Peco last time I did any 4mm modelling about 25 years ago!!

Jeremy Good wrote:Hi Richie
I can’t comment on Hornby 08 but have converted a couple of Bachmann ones using Gibson wheels/cranks and Brassmasters rods.
So far I haven’t needed to alter the pick-up strips other than to make sure they reach the back of the wheel treads. The biggest difficulty I found was that the crankpin screws need to be well countersunk on the cranks otherwise they can foul the moulded outside springs on the chassis. Otherwise they are a fairly straightforward conversion.
I generally cheat with wheel blackening by using a Sharpie or similar indelible marker. I have heard of Gun Black in a pen used as well but can’t remember where that was sourced.
Jeremy

Jeremy,
Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated. Bachmann was my preferred option, but I started to waiver when I read about the Hornby option - but that was really based on my experience of Horny from 20+ years ago, and its very obvious a lot has changed since then. Pleased that I had understood the conversion side of things right, I'll look to go down that road I think. You may regret offering the PM :D

I'd heard of Gun Metal Black being used for blackening couplings, but didn't realise it could used on wheels so thanks to you and @Enigma for that tip, much appreciated.

I'm going to get some track and chairs ordered later today, then finish drawing up the reasonably simple track plan tonight/tomorrow, and hopefully make a start on things Friday or Saturday, in terms of the layout. Just need to acquire a suitable 08 before the conversion can start.

Thanks guys.
Richie

47331xosIM
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:33 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:For 1960s-70s its most likely that sidings would still be in bullhead, code 75 being the appropriate size.
If they had been recently relaid with flatbottom that would likely be 109/110 or 113lb/yd all of which can be represented by code 82 or code 83. Code 55 would be much to small.


Hi Keith,
I see the Society does bullhead in Code 75, but only flat bottom in Code 82. Would 75 look to small do you think, or is that the accepted norm?

Also I note the society does Exactoscale bridge chairs, slide chairs and check chairs but then does Chairs for A, B or C Switches. Is there an acceptance that one is better than the other, is it personal preference or have I misunderstood. A little difficult to check with there being no pictures of the idea. I assume I also need a 4FT101A P4 gauge for Bullhead Rail?

Richie

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ClikC
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby ClikC » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:26 pm

47331xosIM wrote:Hi Keith,
I see the Society does bullhead in Code 75, but only flat bottom in Code 82. Would 75 look to small do you think, or is that the accepted norm?

Also I note the society does Exactoscale bridge chairs, slide chairs and check chairs but then does Chairs for A, B or C Switches. Is there an acceptance that one is better than the other, is it personal preference or have I misunderstood. A little difficult to check with there being no pictures of the idea. I assume I also need a 4FT101A P4 gauge for Bullhead Rail?

Richie


Bullhead Code 75 Rail is widely accepted for representing prototype BS-95R Bullhead Rail, which would be appropriate for your period and proposed location.

"A, B or C Switches" refers to the length of the planning of the switch rail, i.e. the material removed to allow the switch rail to lay against the stock rail, A being the shortest, B being the middle and C the longest. Longer switch rails exist, but the turnouts starts to become very large, a B7 or B8 turnout would make a good initial trackwork project.

The Moving to P4 section of the website is a good place to start, in particular the section on plain track points and crossings. Society members have access to track templates. Additionally, the society provides many digest sheets, such as Trackwork.

Regards

Matt
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garethashenden
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby garethashenden » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:14 pm

I would recommend for a first diesel something with bogies. Quartering driving wheels isn't that hard, but it is a potential source of problems. Gibson wheels in a 20/24/25/35/whatever would get you going faster. Assuming you have the locomotive of course. This will let you test your track and you can covert the 08 at leisure.

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Winander
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Winander » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:17 pm

Also an excellent set of articles on trackwork from Howard Bolton in the News. 194 and addendum in 195
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:10 pm

Hi Keith,
I see the Society does bullhead in Code 75, but only flat bottom in Code 82. Would 75 look to small do you think, or is that the accepted norm?
For Bullhead the code 75 is the correct scale size for 95lb/yd rail which has been the standard since edwardian times so its the only size you need for bullhead. The prototype flat bottom rail is taller hence the use of code 82. Code 82 is correct for UK mainline practice from its introduction up to now although in the last 20 years a larger size, UIC60, has been introduced for the heaviest duty track. Smaller sizes could be found on light railways and industrial tracks and on narrow gauge, but not relevant to your case.
Also I note the society does Exactoscale bridge chairs, slide chairs and check chairs but then does Chairs for A, B or C Switches. Is there an acceptance that one is better than the other, is it personal preference or have I misunderstood. A little difficult to check with there being no pictures of the idea.
The individual chairs of each type are appropriate when you are building a lot of track, when starting getting the switch chairs and the common crossing chairs on a per turnout basis will be better. The downloadable templates will show which chairs go where.
https://www.scalefour.org/members/tracktemplates/
I assume I also need a 4FT101A P4 gauge for Bullhead Rail?
Not sure what that is, the gauges you need for track building are 190, 192 and 193.
Have a look at [url]http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html
[/url]
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Winander
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Winander » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:38 pm

Code: Select all

4FT101A.   P4 18.83mm gauge for BH rail (Exactoscale)   £8.50

190      Track gauge, triangular, for automatic gauge widening   £9.50
DD-190   Track gauge, triangular, for automatic gauge widening new type (DD Wheelwrights)   Out of Stock
191      Track gauge, rectangular, for automatic gauge widening   £12.50
192      Flangeway gauge   £4.50
DD-192   Flangeway gauge, circular (DD Wheelwrights)   £4.50
DDW01    Block gauge with crossing alignment aid (DD Wheelwrights)   £15.50
193      Checkrail gauge      Out of Stock
195      Track gauge, Type 'A', Brook Smith


You need the minimum of one (two are better) track gauges, a flangeway gauge and a checkrail gauge. I suggest get 2No 190 1No 192 and 1No 193. You can manage without a check rail gauge if you are using ply or plastic sleepers and Exactoscale chairs as the chairs dictate the rail position. Note that the check rail chairs have a code on the sprue that dictates their position on the rail - fortunately they are located on the sprue in sequential order.
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47331xosIM
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:34 pm

garethashenden wrote:I would recommend for a first diesel something with bogies. Quartering driving wheels isn't that hard, but it is a potential source of problems. Gibson wheels in a 20/24/25/35/whatever would get you going faster. Assuming you have the locomotive of course. This will let you test your track and you can covert the 08 at leisure.


Gareth,
Thanks for that. I am coming to this project with no 4mm stock at all .. so there is an acceptance that I need to acquire at least one loco! I take your comment about go for the easiest first and work from there, so I'll take a look at either a Class 25 or Hymek I think, assuming that they are available at the moment - I'll have a trawl around second hand sources as well

Winander wrote:Also an excellent set of articles on trackwork from Howard Bolton in the News. 194 and addendum in 195


Thanks for that (sorry dont know your name!), I have downloaded those and will have a read.

grovenor-2685 wrote:For Bullhead the code 75 is the correct scale size for 95lb/yd rail which has been the standard since edwardian times so its the only size you need for bullhead. The individual chairs of each type are appropriate when you are building a lot of track, when starting getting the switch chairs and the common crossing chairs on a per turnout basis will be better. Have a look at http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html


Keith,
Many thanks for that. I think you've demystified the difference between a couple of items for me there! I'll look at the switch and common crossing chairs as you suggest. I have built track before in 7mm, but not for a while now, so the old grey cells appear to need a reboot! I'll download the templates for reference and have a look at your site. Thank you. I have got the layout pretty well designed in Templot tonight. We're only looking at 5 or 6 points initially, and no slips, so its not complicated!

Winander wrote:You need the minimum of one (two are better) track gauges, a flangeway gauge and a checkrail gauge. I suggest get 2No 190 1No 192 and 1No 193. You can manage without a check rail gauge if you are using ply or plastic sleepers and Exactoscale chairs as the chairs dictate the rail position. Note that the check rail chairs have a code on the sprue that dictates their position on the rail - fortunately they are located on the sprue in sequential order.


Thanks for that. You've confirmed my thoughts on which gauges were needed, although as you say I am planning on using Ply sleepers with Exactoscale chairs so that sounds like it helps with the positioning of the check rail. Thanks for taking the time to check and pass that one, much appreciated.

Richie

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Winander
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Winander » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:37 pm

If you buy the triangular gauges sold in the stores, item 190, check that the 'legs' do not extend to and grip the foot of the rail. If they do, they will cause the track to be under gauge as they will hold the rail vertically when gluing the chairs, and when the gauge is removed, the chairs will exert the 20 degree cant in their design. It is only necessary for the gauges to grip the head of the rail, so file the 'legs' down until they no longer go near the foot.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:30 am

On Elcot Road we used flat bottom track for the main line, and bull head for the sidings. At the time we started the Colin Craig Range of FB track and turnout kits were available but at the moment they are not. C&L can supply FB Rail with sleepers to make 1 metre lengths of flexible track. A few months back in his Brimsdown thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5707&hilit=brimsdown , Tony Wilkins descrived how to make a flat bottom rail turnout using rivetted sleeprs and FB rail solderd to the rivets. Just for fun I built one of these which some people saw at the recent AGM and it came out very well.

About 20 years ago I got someone to convert two Bachmann 08 shunters which I think used Ultrascale wheels. I believe the Bachmann shunter is available with a wider range of variations so may be a better choice. I fitted additional pickups as shown below and these work very well. I used thin copper clad strips glued to the keeper plate and there are two wires which go up to the motor connections.

Terry Bendall

O8 pickups.jpg
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:30 am

Thanks for the plug Terry. This link takes you straight to my thread on Flat bottomed turnout construction, rather than wading through that lot.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7455
For Richards benefit and possibly others, a few words of explanation.
Chairs are used to hold bull head rail whereas base plates are used with Flat bottom rail.
Bull head rail has a similar shaped head and a foot, but the head is deeper than the foot. It is important to get the rail the correct way up, especially with plastic chairs as the head is too big to fit the gap in the chairs, so beware.
The rail code number refers to the height of the rail in thousands of an inch, so code 75 rail is 0.075 inches high. This archaic system tells you nothing else about the rail section.
Re a quick loco conversion. It is important to match the axle diameter with the conversion set. Many recent bogie locos use 2mm axles and conversion is relatively easy. Others use 3mm or 1/8inch axles and care is needed to get a set that matches.
There are many examples of peoples efforts to be found on this forum.
Regards
Tony.
Last edited by Tony Wilkins on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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47331xosIM
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:01 am

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I like the neatness of the extra pick-ups on that 08 too Terry.

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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Enigma » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:00 pm

A lot of the questions etc. that the OP has raised would be well answered by chatting to demonstrators at a S4UM event or similar. A very good reason for trying to continue with some sort of society events even if not of the same format as before.

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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Winander » Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:05 pm

Or by attending an Area Group meeting, possibly the Virtual Group where we would be pleased to assist anyone?
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Paul Willis
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:55 pm

Winander wrote:Or by attending an Area Group meeting, possibly the Virtual Group where we would be pleased to assist anyone?


Richard,

I was about to suggest the same...

if Richie hadn't seen them, details here - 7pm every other Wednesday

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7633

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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby ChrisMitchell » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:27 pm

garethashenden wrote:I would recommend for a first diesel something with bogies. Quartering driving wheels isn't that hard, but it is a potential source of problems. Gibson wheels in a 20/24/25/35/whatever would get you going faster. Assuming you have the locomotive of course. This will let you test your track and you can covert the 08 at leisure.


A Sutton Locomotive Works Class 24 would be a good bet, but unfortunately I don’t think any are in stock at the moment. Drop in P4 wheels can be provided.

Chris

47331xosIM
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby 47331xosIM » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:43 pm

Paul Willis wrote:
Winander wrote:Or by attending an Area Group meeting, possibly the Virtual Group where we would be pleased to assist anyone?


Richard,

I was about to suggest the same...

if Richie hadn't seen them, details here - 7pm every other Wednesday

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7633

Cheers
Paul


Hi Paul/Richard,
Thanks - must admit I didn't know there was a Virtual Group - but probably because id not really looked for one! Funny things these zoom and online things I always feel very out of my depth and somewhat like a 'rabbit in the headlights' on a zoom call with a group I dont know, so tend to shy away from them. I do join the zoom calls on the local 2mm group and rather the enjoy them, but I suppose its all down to being a bit out of ones comfort zone I guess! But thanks for flagging that up Paul, I'll see what my plans are for the next one.

ChrisMitchell wrote:
garethashenden wrote:I would recommend for a first diesel something with bogies. Quartering driving wheels isn't that hard, but it is a potential source of problems. Gibson wheels in a 20/24/25/35/whatever would get you going faster. Assuming you have the locomotive of course. This will let you test your track and you can covert the 08 at leisure.


A Sutton Locomotive Works Class 24 would be a good bet, but unfortunately I don’t think any are in stock at the moment. Drop in P4 wheels can be provided.

Chris


Chris,
Thanks - ironically I recalled Phil Sutton's Class 24 organisation when I started down this road and did take a look. I think they have some 24s on pre-order and have now started doing the 25s, but the first ones are not available yet. I may well look at that option tho when they become available.

Richie

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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby ChrisMitchell » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:11 pm

Richie

I have a Class 25 on order. At ExpoEM SLW were indicating they are due in stock before the year end, but we will wait and see.

Chris

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Winander
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby Winander » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:18 pm

47331xosIM wrote:Funny things these zoom and online things I always feel very out of my depth and somewhat like a 'rabbit in the headlights' on a zoom call with a group I dont know, so tend to shy away from them.

We don't bite. Next meeting is this coming Wednesday 29th, details will be posted here although they are identical for every meeting.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7633

If you click the link in my signature, you will be able to find the same post.
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Re: First P4 Layout - First Loco

Postby keith_harcourt » Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:53 pm

Hi, I am a beginner too, but have a Hornby 08 converted using Ultrascale wheelsets. It runs beautifully.
:D


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