Computer program

[Gurra G]

Hello!
My intention is to build Titfield as a starter project in P4. But before I start I do have a question:

What kind of layout program do you use? I have browsed around the forum a bit and there are some very fine layout prints. This as an example: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=711

Regards

Gustav

[Will L]

Hello!
My intention is to build Titfield as a starter project in P4. But before I start I do have a question:

What kind of layout program do you use? I have browsed around the forum a bit and there are some very fine layout prints. This as an example: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=711

Gustav look here http://www.templot.com/ does a lot more than print!

Will

[John Bateson]

An independent review of Templot is due to appear in Scalefour News 168 due 1 July.
If you can't wait that long - its worth the money anyway...

EditorJohn

[Alan Turner]

The plan shown on the site you refer to is drawn using Templot.

It's the best on the market for producing proper track plans to prototype standards. All the others (except Trax) are for toy trains.

Alan

[Gurra G]

Thank you for all your quick replies and I will wait for the Scalefour News to read the review. I will not start building in P4 until after the Scaleforum in September. I do need almost everything so I will shop till I drop in Leatherhead.

The only thing I will build in P4 this spring and summer will be for the armchair modellers challenge.

Regards
Gustav

[Paul Willis]

Hello!
My intention is to build Titfield as a starter project in P4. But before I start I do have a question:

What kind of layout program do you use? I have browsed around the forum a bit and there are some very fine layout prints. This as an example: viewtopic.php?f=71&t=711

Gustav look here http://www.templot.com/ does a lot more than print!

Templot is a superb but "unusual" program - to use a very English turn of phrase... Martin Wynne has superb knowledge of the prototype, but hates Microsoft with a passion. Despite the fact that 98% of the known world lives and breathes in the way that Windows works, Templot is structured and works *very* differently. It is counter-intuitive to the point that a casual user would almost believe that it is deliberately written that way to be awkward.

Having got that off my chest, to help you up the very steep learning curve, one of the users has just written an excellent beginners' guide. You can find it at

http://85a.co.uk/getting_started_with_t ... _ferguson/

Martin also gives an amazing level of feedback to questions via the Templot forum. I just wish that he didn't need to answer quite so many because the software was more logical to use :-/

Flymo

[nigelcliffe]

Templot is a superb but "unusual" program - to use a very English turn of phrase... Martin Wynne has superb knowledge of the prototype, but hates Microsoft with a passion. Despite the fact that 98% of the known world lives and breathes in the way that Windows works, Templot is structured and works *very* differently. It is counter-intuitive to the point that a casual user would almost believe that it is deliberately written that way to be awkward.

So, its not just me who thinks the user interface in Templot is a problem. FWIW, its not Microsoft who set those interface conventions, they originate at Xerox, then adopted by Apple for the Mac, then IBM, then Microsoft finally picked them up.

I get annoyed by it's deliberate flouting of conventions which are there to make software usable, so I find it simpler to ask other users to draw things for me than get annoyed with a silly software user interface design. Its as if the S4 society had a policy of "don't ever make things easier to use, it might destroy the elite mystique which Scalefour has in the minds of the average modeller".


- Nigel

[grovenor-2685]

Its as if the S4 society had a policy of "don't ever make things easier to use, it might destroy the elite mystique which Scalefour has in the minds of the average modeller".

Nigel,
Please don't blame the Scalefour Society for Martin's idiosyncracies or we'll soon have another 'recieved wisdom' fact about elitism.
Martin is not even a member.

For what its worth the MMI is not that bad, you only need to get the peg and notch clear in your mind from the tutorials and can then produce drawings very easily. The biggest risk is that you get carried away perfecting your Templot plan and never get to the actual building stage. If you just do as much as is needed to actually build it then its quick and easy.
Keith

[nigelcliffe]

Its as if the S4 society had a policy of "don't ever make things easier to use, it might destroy the elite mystique which Scalefour has in the minds of the average modeller".

Nigel,
Please don't blame the Scalefour Society for Martin's idiosyncracies or we'll soon have another 'recieved wisdom' fact about elitism.
Martin is not even a member.

Sorry, that was not my intention; I know Martin Wynne makes his own decisions about his code.

However, I agree it could be read in a way that I didn't intend... I was drawing a comparison but the language could have been clearer. (Along lines of "if you get your own lathe to make wheels, rolling mill to produce rail, what's the problem ?.... ").


regards

- Nigel

[Alan Turner]

If, at the start, you get out of your mind any thoughts that Templot is a CAD programme then you are half way there.

Also the interface is not that far removed from what you have come to expect from Windows.

My only niggle is that the same instructions can be found in more than one place - that's what I find off putting.

Alan

[Paul Willis]

I don't want this to turn into Templot bashing, as I've already said that it's a superb program, but you' have repeated one or two misconceptions that those of us that have tried (and failed) several times to learn how to use...

If, at the start, you get out of your mind any thoughts that Templot is a CAD programme then you are half way there.

This is MYTH NUMBER ONE. Capital letters, as I'm so fed up of hearing it!

I work in a legal role in a bank. I've never used a CAD program in my life. I couldn't even *name* a CAD program. So what on earth does telling me that it's not a CAD package have to do with anything? You might as well say "it's not a program for cataloguing wine vintages", or playing MP3s, or whatever. The comparison is completely meaningless.

Also the interface is not that far removed from what you have come to expect from Windows.

I work with Windows programs on average 10-12 hours a day. When I press CTRL-Z, I know that I get Undo. I've tried that in Templot. Some things undo. Some don't. I can't work out (or find out) what does and what doesn't...

A lot of it *looks* vaguely similar, but is subtly different. I have taken the time to learn all of the Templot vocabulary - the "current" template, and the background, and boxfiles, and peg and notch, all the rest, but it still doesn't work in the same way that you expect. An example from when I last tried. This reverse curve on the board is drawn and printed from Templot:

Demo board 013.jpg

It was drawn to P4 standards all properly set up as the first stage in Templot. In theory, I would have expected it to print over about four pages at 100%. It didn't. It took about 38 pages and was enormous. To get it to print out even vaguely to scale I had to measure with a ruler the gauge of the printed track, do a bit of maths to get it to 18.83mm and the actual printout is the diagram reduced to 9.5%. I tried, and tried, and couldn't find out why it wasn't printing out at the correct scale! Bodge-tastic!

I will say that I haven't worked through the Duffer's Guide that I've just posted - I simply haven't had the time and maybe that will make it all clear.

My only niggle is that the same instructions can be found in more than one place - that's what I find off putting.

And Martin's charming habit of giving multiple ways of doing the same thing - "to insert a blank template, press CTRL-T, or Fn-F9, or left-mouse click three times, or rub your right elbow anti-clockwise and sing Humpty Dumpty...".

It's still a damn good program though

Flymo

[martin goodall]

Alternatively, you could try doing the track design with old-fashioned hand drawing methods - it would probably be quicker when you take into account the amount of time you would spend learning how to use Templot.

I wrote an article on the subject way back in MRJ No.71, if you want to see how to calculate and plot the curves, crossing angles, etc.

[Paul Willis]

Two images to illustrate Martin Wynne's post in the Guest Book:

Templot 1 - the purple dotted lines show how it should print across A4 paper

Templot 1.jpg

Templot 2 - but when it comes to printing, you get 110 pages to be output!

Templot 2.jpg

Cheers
Flymo

[Alan Turner]

Go to Print > Printer Calibration > Delete calibration.

Then either recalibrate your printer or, for a test, use Uncalibrated when the pop-up asks.

Alan

[Paul Willis]

Templot screenshot 3 - to adjust a printer scaling

Templot 3.jpg

[Lambridge]

Can I suggest another route for "mucking about" before getting stuck into the intricacies of Templot. I've been working with a program called xtrkcad for quite a while and although it is hugely different from the authentic permanent way that Templot produces it is (1) much easier to use to draw layouts and (2) free .
http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage
It has a library of P4 track components - basic A4 to C12 turnouts, there are a significant number of ommissions along the way but it's not too difficult to add new turnout configerations, although with limitations.
The main advantage I feel xtrkcad has over Templot is as a layout design tool. Templot's own documentation explains that it is not well suited to drawing out an entire layout, whereas on xtrkcad you tell it the size of your room, then you can draw some baseboards complete with board joints and bracing, and start putting the track over the top making sure you avoid clashes between turnout operating units and board timberwork etc.
Of course you can scan and import a baseboard plan diagram into Templot, or an OS map of your intended station plan, and then use them as a background on which to draw the templates. But if you just want to draw (doodle) track plans that incorporate transition curves and reasonably accurate turnouts then xtrkcad is a lovely little plaything to have on the PC. And like I say, at the price what've you got to lose?

[Bilton Junction]

Templot is a fantastic program. It just takes a little getting used to but so does everything in P4! I would recommend it to anyone. It allows you to play around with designs and form set of customised templates that will flow and fit together. You make the mistakes on paper. I have neither the confidence nor skill to cut and paste with standard P4 templates. It does has far more in common with Apple computers, which in turn made me see the sheer illogicality and user unfriendliness of Mr Gate's offerings and encouraged me to get an Apple computer instead. Trouble was that despite the fantastic processing and graphic potential of an Apple, Templot will only run on urrgghh microsoft programs, so don't whinge! Are you really sure you want to do that. Press ctrl.alt.del to continue.

Carl

[iak]

Having had Templot for some time and only dabbled with it, I feel it is a very powerful and effective tool. Sadly, like many such pieces of specialist software, it has a steep learning curve and one needs to commit to sit down and work at it to benefit from the way it works, properly.
Professionally I work with some very cranky and odd software and its essentially a case of perseverance - it may not be ideal in one's hobby but such is life.
I agree about Xtracad being worth a play with however, think of it as a auld Mini or Escort compared to the Zonda or TVR that is Templot....

[Paul Willis]

I agree about Xtracad being worth a play with however, think of it as a auld Mini or Escort compared to the Zonda or TVR that is Templot....

I beg to differ, but my TVR is a damn sight easier to drive than Templot ever is! Especially sideways on wet roads

Flymo

[grovenor-2685]

iak wrote:
I agree about Xtracad being worth a play with ....

I beg to differ,
Flymo

Why do you think Xtracad is not worth a play? I found it quite helpful.
Keith

[martin goodall]

As I wrote here on the 9th April, you could always try doing the track design with old-fashioned hand drawing methods - it would probably be quicker when you take into account the amount of time you would spend learning how to use Templot. See the article I wrote on the subject in MRJ No.71, if you want to see how to calculate and plot the curves, crossing angles, etc.

I never cease to marvel at the lengths people go to to use a computer to do things, when old-fashioned pencil and paper might well be quicker and more effective. I remember being very impressed by a report I read as long ago as 1979 which said exactly that. Plus ca change........

[iak]

If you draw like I do Martin, the PC is a much more sensible route....

[Martin Wynne]

Templot screenshot 3 - to adjust a printer scaling

Hi Paul,

6 years on I have just come across this post.

Clearly if you set the printer calibration to near 10% instead of near 100% you are going to get 10 times more pages in each direction (100 times more pages in all) than should be the case.

All the Templot-bashing in this topic is because you got the decimal point in the wrong place when measuring the printer calibration sheet.

Clearly that was not Templot's fault. However it was Templot's fault for not flagging up a warning message when you entered silly figures. So I'm sorry about that, and I am right now inserting such a warning message in the code.

Unfortunately I don't have the faintest idea of what would be the official Microsoft way of doing that -- probably

"There is something wrong. Yes. No. Cancel."

-- so I shall do it my way.

regards,

Martin.

[Paul Willis]

6 years on I have just come across this post.

Clearly if you set the printer calibration to near 10% instead of near 100% you are going to get 10 times more pages in each direction (100 times more pages in all) than should be the case.

All the Templot-bashing in this topic is because you got the decimal point in the wrong place when measuring the printer calibration sheet.

Hi Martin,

In which case I unreservedly admit that I was a complete muppet!

As you know, I've converted to being one of Templot's biggest fans and cheerleaders, so if I ever find myself doing something stupid like that again, I'll check for operator error first, before thinking about anything else

All the best,
Flymo

[Martin Wynne]

As you know, I've converted to being one of Templot's biggest fans and cheerleaders

Thanks Paul.

I have now added a confirmation message if the entered calibration figures are below 90% or above 110% of the expected dimensions:

cal_confirm.png

So thanks for alerting me to the need for it, even if I did take 6 years to do anything about it.

regards,

Martin.